- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hey, I was wondering if anyone knew some good Elfman chords. I figured out a few, such as the Dom 7th chord, which is often used in Pee Wee’s Big Adventure. This chord consists of Ab, C, Eb, F#. I was hoping maybe some fellow musicians could share some typical Danny sounds, tips, or whatever. I’ve ben trying to write Danny Elfman stuff for a long time, but can’t get the hang of the style, I just don’t have enough resources. And figuring the songs out doesn’t really help me create my own.
I would also like to know how any of the fellow musicians here write their songs, like methods and such. I used to try to come up with a simple motif, (C, Ab, G, F) but I can’t seem to build a song around it. Anyone have any advice?
-Eric
Here is my advise: DON’T COPY ELFMAN! While it may be appealing to try and get his exact style down, you can’t. Everyone has a different style, and the thing about Danny’s is that he can write the most weird thing yet still make it his. The whole chord thing is just strange, because no matter what chord you pick, it’s the CONTEXT of it that gives it a nice sound. If you are trying to be a composer, let your own style come out. To be influenced is great, but to rip off someone elses style is just wrong. We have Danny, and his music is great, and he is still writing it, so we don’t need someone who will try to exactly copy his style (because no matter what you do, it will not get that perfect “Elfman” sound to it”). So find your voice.
Knight (I would say the same thing about John Williams even though I don’t really like too much of his music)
madd diminished chords and minor 6ths…. if you really want to be elfmanesque.
well, i didn’t mean to say copy style exactly, sorry about that. i meant that i want to kind of expand my chords, and my playing ability, and i just wanted some simple danny motifs, because i know he uses alot of the same things, i just can’t put my finger on them (no pun intended). maybe some danny chords like jeremy listed, just a little something to make newer sounds rather than just minor 7ths, or major chords.
-Eric
Dom 7th chord a “typical Danny Elfman chord”? That’s about the most stupid thing I’ve ever heard. From Bach to Holst, this chord appears about a a billion times in music history – so how can it be “typical” for a composer?
By the way, it’s Ab, C, Eb and Gb, not F#.I’ll suggest an Elfmanesque chord progression for you. Try d-minor, bflat- minor (using the top b flat, not the bottom), f major (using c, f and a (from the left), A major ( using e, a and c sharp (from the left) and d-minor6)
Also moving from one minor chord to the minor chord on the miidle note (e.g from Cminor to Eb minor or Aminor to c minor)
Also minor7th sharp is a common one.
Hope this helps a little.I’ll suggest an Elfmanesque chord progression for you. Try d-minor, bflat- minor (using the top b flat, not the bottom), f major (using c, f and a (from the left), A major ( using e, a and c sharp (from the left) and d-minor6)
Also moving from one minor chord to the minor chord on the miidle note (e.g from Cminor to Eb minor or Aminor to c minor)
Also minor7th sharp is a common one.
Hope this helps a little.Those type of progressions are properly known as Third of Mediant Relations.
Whatever chord you start on, move to its third building a minor or major chord or whatever the hell you want, just move in thirds (Dm to Fm to C to Ebm to G to Em to C#m)
It is a technique that can be traced back to Gesualdo’s Motets in the 14th-15th century. He was branded a heretic and excommunicated from the church.
This technique is used heavily by Danny. Silvestri uses them a lot too, Goldsmith is a master in them.
what the hell is a “minor seventh sharp” anyway?
Those type of progressions are properly known as Third or Mediant Relations.
Whatever chord you start on, move to its third building a minor or major chord or whatever the hell you want, just move in thirds (Dm to Fm to C to Ebm to G to Em to C#m)
It is a technique that can be traced back to Gesualdo’s Motets in the 14th-15th century. He was branded a heretic and excommunicated from the church.
This technique is used heavily by Danny. Silvestri uses them a lot too, Goldsmith is a master in them.
what the hell is a “minor seventh sharp” anyway?
Those type of progressions are properly known as Third or Mediant Relations.
Whatever chord you start on, move to its third building a minor or major chord or whatever the hell you want, just move in thirds (Dm to Fm to C to Ebm to G to Em to C#m)
It is a technique that can be traced back to Gesualdo’s Motets in the 14th-15th century. He was branded a heretic and excommunicated from the church.
This technique is used heavily by Danny. Silvestri uses them a lot too, Goldsmith is a master in them.
what the hell is a “minor seventh sharp” anyway?
First off, you can copy whoever you want to, musically or otherwise, as long as you don’t sell it. That’s also a very good way to learn music, seeing as it’s how all musicians learn (hear and do, or read and play, etc.). Secondly, it’s very hard to copy Elfman’s style, because it is endless!! He, himself, has ripped styles from the far corners of the world, so how could someone possibly copy it, since he can write anything in any way?
But I think I know which aspect of his style you’re talking about. This is why I fell in love with him, and though I love every single thing he’s ever written for a movie (It’s all good, to me) my absolute favorite style is that nightmarish stuff that european masters concieved centuries ago. That’s right, Danny Elfman didn’t invent it, even though he uses it all the time. But that’s why I like him, because all those “great composers” only employed the really dark, melodic, minor stuff SOME of the time. But Elfman uses it MOST of the time (Chopin, too, so see if you can listen to him and learn some of his piano music).
One of the very first things I, myself, learned by ear was Tales from the Crypt. From that, I drew some very basic chords which I’ve used ever since. They are just minor chords! But I only know that since I’ve taken theory. Anyways, I really hope I have not confused you as much as everyone else confused me. Here’s the chords:
Cmin Ab Fmin Gmaj
That is the simplest Elfman chord progression I ever learned (though you can just play any two of them, and that’s cool too). There are also a bazillion ways to add to that progression, and spice it up melodically, and alter the chords a bit (like that Abminor, that some others were referring to) I could tell you lots and lots and LOTS of really cool chords for elfmanish stuff, but this message is too long already! I’ve been studying this chord style since I was seven years old. E-mail me if you are not sickened by my grand waste of print, and I shall share all I know with you.
-+>Joe Evans
P.S. For the record, Elfman’s style consists of so much more than the chords he uses; every chord has been used, many times, by some person or other, so how could anyone really claim any of them?
First off, you can copy whoever you want to, musically or otherwise, as long as you don’t sell it. That’s also a very good way to learn music, seeing as it’s how all musicians learn (hear and do, or read and play, etc.). Secondly, it’s very hard to copy Elfman’s style, because it is endless!! He, himself, has ripped styles from the far corners of the world, so how could someone possibly copy it, since he can write anything in any way?
But I think I know which aspect of his style you’re talking about. This is why I fell in love with him, and though I love every single thing he’s ever written for a movie (It’s all good, to me) my absolute favorite style is that nightmarish stuff that european masters concieved centuries ago. That’s right, Danny Elfman didn’t invent it, even though he uses it all the time. But that’s why I like him, because all those “great composers” only employed the really dark, melodic, minor stuff SOME of the time. But Elfman uses it MOST of the time (Chopin, too, so see if you can listen to him and learn some of his piano music).
One of the very first things I, myself, learned by ear was Tales from the Crypt. From that, I drew some very basic chords which I’ve used ever since. They are just minor chords! But I only know that since I’ve taken theory. Anyways, I really hope I have not confused you as much as everyone else confused me. Here’s the chords:
Cmin Ab Fmin Gmaj
That is the simplest Elfman chord progression I ever learned (though you can just play any two of them, and that’s cool too). There are also a bazillion ways to add to that progression, and spice it up melodically, and alter the chords a bit (like that Abminor, that some others were referring to) I could tell you lots and lots and LOTS of really cool chords for elfmanish stuff, but this message is too long already! I’ve been studying this chord style since I was seven years old. E-mail me if you are not sickened by my grand waste of print, and I shall share all I know with you.
-+>Joe Evans
P.S. For the record, Elfman’s style consists of so much more than the chords he uses; every chord has been used, many times, by some person or other, so how could anyone really claim any of them?
Don’t forget the augmented chords which Elfman uses very frequently especially in those heroic themes. Augmented chords often get a Dominant function as they are lead to a major chord and the harmony goes on to another key, usually quite “exotic” key for instance some major third related keys etc. Ok, using major third related keys is a standard tool for a (film) composer writing dark and scary music.
Sorry about this somehow quite bad description. As I’m not a person who speaks english as a native language, I know few musical terms in english… Shame me:(
-Z-
Yeah, I’ve been writing music for a while, I’ve got some things in the works at the moment. Does anyone here have anything written?
-Eric
I’ve been writing music since I was about 14 years old. I’ve completed over 70 concert works as well as recently working on internet films and commercials. You can check out a list of my works at:
natrebo.com
Among the concert works is a yet to be performed hour long Oratorio based on the Roswell incident and a couple of String Quartets.
The Demo CD on the site is making “circulation” in LA right now. I have a friend who has a few contacts out there and has given some to a few TV producers. I don’t have any high expectations from it, but if anything happened, it would be nice. I’m also getting back into concert works, because I was recently commissioned to write a Flute Sonata for performance next Spring – that is what I’m working on now (along with an independent film that I will be directing next year).
Nat
Wow that just seemed like an info-commercial for Me, didn’t it. I’m sorry.
Hey Nat: How did you meet those people to do internet films and whatnot? I have a struggling composer friend who is dying to score something. I know it is not really good to help out other composers, but come on, be nice
Knight (I do too much for my friends)
Well, I had started a Web Design business with a friend who did code, and I handled all of the art and sound design work. One of the commercials I scored was for a local spot than ran for our parent company – an Internet Provider called FutureSouth. My friend (a computer science grad) had an offer in Chicago bringing down the big bucks – when I say that I mean that, just one of his programs sold to a Nutrition site for over $40,000!!! Well he gives me work every now and then. I also score my own Web, and short films to help past the time. It great to have friends that pay you back after doing “too much for them” when there is no money in it – do you get what I mean?
I hope that helps, if not I’m sorry.
Nat
Also, one of the biggest internet film communities are the Star War Fan Films, you might have your friend put up an open invitation to do their short films. Try http://www.theforce.net – their Fan Film section is really cool, I’ll have a film there soon. A 16 minute computer animated comedy called The Three Probe Stooges (It contains no original score though).
Maybe try to not think of things as chords and progressions. I studied Composition for 2 years and was baffled until I realized that it is just notes on the piano, regardless what is augmented or diminished. I try to think of certain areas of the piano as certain colors and try to go more off the mood and feeling of what I hear from those “colors”. I also idolize Bernard Herrmann and also Duke Ellington for reasons other than Elfman and because I loved their music so much, that is what made me connect with Danny’s music. I suggest maybe listening to the work that inspired him because in turn you can hear in Danny’s music all of the people clearly who inspired him, although it is 100% completely Danny Elfman. Like others had pointed out imitation is flattering unless you blindly steal then that is another topic completely. There is an art though I believe anyway, in taking bits and pieces of all of the music, regardless who wrote it or style that has made you want to spend all of your time creating something of your own, and figure out how it makes you feel and pay attention to that. You have a style of your own when you are able understand the music that you love, from the heart and not in theory and translate that into chords that give you the same feelings as Elfman’s or whoever and although something may sound “in the style of” or whatever, in the end it is yours because you wrote it to move yourself and not becasue you wanted to sound like Danny Elfman.
I hope that helps even though it probably sounds like rambling nonsense!
Best of luck!Maybe try to not think of things as chords and progressions. I studied Composition for 2 years and was baffled until I realized that it is just notes on the piano, regardless what is augmented or diminished. I try to think of certain areas of the piano as certain colors and try to go more off the mood and feeling of what I hear from those “colors”. I also idolize Bernard Herrmann and also Duke Ellington for reasons other than Elfman and because I loved their music so much, that is what made me connect with Danny’s music. I suggest maybe listening to the work that inspired him because in turn you can hear in Danny’s music all of the people clearly who inspired him, although it is 100% completely Danny Elfman. Like others had pointed out imitation is flattering unless you blindly steal then that is another topic completely. There is an art though I believe anyway, in taking bits and pieces of all of the music, regardless who wrote it or style that has made you want to spend all of your time creating something of your own, and figure out how it makes you feel and pay attention to that. You have a style of your own when you are able understand the music that you love, from the heart and not in theory and translate that into chords that give you the same feelings as Elfman’s or whoever and although something may sound “in the style of” or whatever, in the end it is yours because you wrote it to move yourself and not becasue you wanted to sound like Danny Elfman.
I hope that helps even though it probably sounds like rambling nonsense!
Best of luck!Nat: Thanks man, I’ll pass on the word!
JM: VERY good point.
Joe: Good point as well, but what is the point in copying someone elses music (even if you don’t release it)? The ORIGINAL piece is there, so why try to match it? And I think there is a big difference between the way a musician learns to play music and the way a composer learns to write it.
The reason why I don’t think anyone should try to duplicate another composer’s style (be it whomever) is that people can write new original music that is influenced but different, which (in my opinion) is much better that trying to copy someone elses sound. Hell, there are even people out thier doing scores who do this (one guy comes to mind of trying to be Bernard Herrmann, and not doing a great job at it either), but they are few, because who wants someone who has nothing new to bring. The reason that Danny Elfman is so brilliant is that no matter what he scores, it’s still his, but it’s NEW. Everything he writes has a new sound that is still his. That is why it is better to be inspired by your fav composers and then write in your own style. If you just do complete variations or whatever on someone elses music, you are just degrading yourself and the other composer, because you are not them, never will be, and you are just recycling music that has already been done. Now you can all yell at me.
Knight (Be who you are, not who you want to be)
Yeah, but how do you know what your “style” is? What if you don’t even have a “style” yet? What if you hate you’re “Style”! I don’t mean to copy someone else’s original music to make your own original music, either, but rather as kind of an exercise to learn what they did, for your own knowledge.
-+>Joe Evans
Yeah, but how do you know what your “style” is? What if you don’t even have a “style” yet? What if you hate you’re “Style”! I don’t mean to copy someone else’s original music to make your own original music, either, but rather as kind of an exercise to learn what they did, for your own knowledge.
-+>Joe Evans
Well, there are two ways that you can go about this: 1) Copy them, or 2) Use thier methods in your music. Alot of composers se some trademark methods of other composers in thier music, but it’s still thier music (even John Williams does it). If you hate your style, it’s not your style, because you should be able to stuff that sounds good to you (if not to other people). If you can’t, then you arn’t trying hard enough. And EVERYONE has a style. If I sit down and play Nirvana’s Smells like teen spirit on my guitar, I may be playing the same notes, but I will adlib on the playing style, because I am not Kurt Cobain. Now take this note progression for example: F#, A, G, B (Theme for To Die For). If you used that any copied it, you would just have the theme for To Die For, nothing original. But if you orchestrated around it (unless you are copying), you would have original music. It all depends on the chords, instruments, and meter used. Or you could do a variation on it. But don’t do the exact same thing, that is all I’m saying. Let your style come out, use stuff that you would want to use (Hmm, I think a Kazoo would sound nice here, and maybe someone beating a tin can with a drum stick there), and don’t hesitate to get REALLY REALLY LOUD! Oh, and the golden rule, don’t overdo it. A simpler melody is more likley to get your listener’s attention than a whole jumble of notes that get lost in the aftermath. If you are going to use the full orchestra on something, spread out the instruments, you really don’t need all of them playing throughout the whole piece. Example: That big Finale for Meet Joe Black? Strings and French Horns (with misc percussion and stuff but the main part was a French Horns and Strings). Hopefully some of this will help.
Knight (This is still pretty new to me guys so let me know if I missed something)
Well, I didn’t mean literally “rip-off” Danny’s style. I’m not a certain Kleenex commercial or anything. I just meant perhaps some of you may know his earlier arrangments, like brass, flutes, etc.
I’ve been listening to alot of Bernard Herrmann lately, and one song stood out: The Day the Earth Stood Still (main title). It is very reminiscent of Mars Attacks, and I love the way he does the harmonies for the trumpets, as well as Danny. I was wondering if any of you guys may know how to write parts like desceding trumpets parts or what-not. Usually when I have a string or trumpet bit, it kinda sits there in that same position unfortanutely
I try to make ascending or descending trumpets, but when I do it harmonically, it sounds off and just gross. Perhaps someone could share something like that too.I’m very glad there are so many replies covering the composing issue, it’s great to see that not only are there Danny fans who love his music, but also write themselves, and get involved in the process.
-Eric
Ooh, that is a tough one. Let me guess, you are using synths or samplers to compose right? The whole problem with brass used through synths and samplers is that they don’t have the real effect that you can get via the real instruments. There is so much that the player does that makes it sound good, but you just can’t get anywhere near it with the other mediums (which is most likley the reason why it sounds “gross”). But you should be able to work with what you have so here is my recommendation: Write with the synth in mind, not the performance (unless you know exactly how it will sound performed, and if it will be performed). One good thing about samplers is that they can do velocity splits (dynamics to those who don’t write via MIDI), so you have have say a soft trumpet sound or a loud brassy trumpet sound depending on how loud you write it (or hit the key for those using keyboards). If at all possible, get a soundcard that has soundfont compatability (most Soundblaster Live! cards feature it, but the audigy sucks for soundfonts), or if you have the money, go buy Gigastudio (which Danny Elfman uses as a matter of fact), because that has MUCH better sound, channels, and polyphony. But there is still alot that you can’t do, like a crecendo on any brass instrument (which I LOVE hearing), because these guys haven’t figured out a way to do it. Best of luck.
Knight (Who also loves the score to The Day The Earth Stood Still, and Danny Elfman even commented that he was going for that type of sound in Mars Attacks!)
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.