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Ryan, isn’t it funny that you seem to quiet when Elfman plagerises himself? Take Spider-man for instance, doesn’t that echo Batman slightly? In future, I’d like you get off my back about Horner, ok?
?????
What is this an old discussion about Horner again?
That is getting boring. I don’t know how you feel guys but talking about Horner again…it sucks. Don’t know…just my opinion.Ryan. What doyou know about composing? It’s just his style. The movie is about another superhero and it needs that kind of soundtrack. Elfman uses the same tricks in instrumentation to make this music more majestic and recognisible. But you cannot say he plagerises himself (by the way, you cant plagerises yourself – you can do it only to someone else). There are no even simmilar melodies. Yes- there are strings and choir – you know, Bethoven used it too.
Dude.Whatever the case, if the director wanted something completely different, then he wouldnt have hired Elfman to do the job — he woulda hired your pal Horner, or anyone else. Point is, Raimi liked Elfman’s style, so he put him for the job. Elfman has a long resume for doing blockbuster superhero scores, and so be it. Boom Boom…end story. id like to see Elfman do a war flick like Horner did for Windtalkers…You know — something off the usual mark…maybe he could do like a Jerry Bruckheimer production. That’d be pretty ODD, to say the least.
First off, let’s make the distinction between “Style” and “Self-plagarism”. There are major distinctions.
First off “style” is usually tied to the composer’s personal voice. Meaning Elfman has a “style” he composes in, using a similiar *approach* to a film within a similiar genre. BATMAN and SPIDER-MAN are superhero/comic films. The fact that Elfman utilizes similiar composing techniques for both films is both understandable and acceptable.
“Self-plagarism” refers to the blatant reuse of themes and motifs, cues, ideas and sections of a score in another score. The fact that I’m not the only one who notices James Horner’s frequent self-plagarism means it’s *real*. Horner effectively reuses the same ideas and motifs in score after score, with total disregard for the people who notice — mainly us, the people who listen to this music.
I know Danny Elfman’s music very well. I’ve listened to all of his film score albums countless times. There are few instances where Elfman relies completely on an idea in a score that he used in a score previously. In each case, where an element like a choir is used, there are fresh elements to augment that. But when Horner reuses the “4-note evil motif” from WILLOW in each of his scores, that’s not “style” — that’s lazy.
Ryan
I realize I haven’t been here long, and perhaps I’m out of line, but…..
This is an Elfman site, right? And it is Ryan’s site, right?
So what’s the problem?
Maybe a horner site should be put up and no one can say anything bad about him on it, or else?
O.K. all done now.-beth
I must admit, this conversation was even boring to read. this discussion’s name began as ‘ryan.’ and I thought i’d here more about the guy so I could no as much about him as I know erika, nat, beth, and Dobbs. but then there’s this blah blah blah about horner, and more overly-defensive elfman fans jumping on people’s opinions, though I can’t really blame them. why aren’t these people hanging out at horner sites where elf-bashing doesn’t get you into trouble.. it get’s you promoted!
lexi: can’t we all just get along? -stolen from mars attacks! and planet of the apes.
Plagerizing yourself is like eating your own vomit–you can do it if you want, but things might get messy. As for Danny, I’ll just say I don’t think he eats his own vomit–and if he did, I’d say he doesn’t eat anymore than anyone else.
By the way, I’m thinking by “self plagerism” that would include writing the exact same thing–or so damn close that you can’t tell the difference–that has already been wrote before.
I mean people write books that have the same plot, but as long as the story isn’t the same as what someone else wrote, then everything’s peachy. Plus there’s always the fact that Danny’s music is still snazzy, even if some of his compositions sound similar.
Either way, I wouldn’t worry about it too much, because it’d just be ridiculous if Danny decided to sue himself over the issue!
That’s all I’m gonna say, because this conversation’s been done to death too many times already.
i realize everyone is sick of this subject.
but, i’d like to add a point (if anybody’s even still reading this thread)=
Horner doesn’t only re-use his own themes countless times – he uses OTHER composer’s themes, without giving due credit.
a good example of this would be his constant recycling of Gayne’s Ballet suite…
you don’t see Elfman doing this, and on the rare occasion he DOES (i.e. Beautiful Dreamer in Batman) at least he gives props to the source.(p.s., i don’t hate James Horner… i don’t want to bash him… i just think he’s more of a professional then an artist… although, he certainly has his moments)
Ok. by the way
there is the same score in castaway and bravehart
what is that?Pawel, the same score is NOT in Braveheart and Castaway. They’re both two entirely different scores by two entirely different composers. The Braveheart score was used in the Castaway *trailer*.
If you’re talkin’ about ripping someone else’s stuff off, (at least without getting permission and/or giving credit) then it’s just plain plagerism. If you’re talking about a composer using some of his or her old themes, ideas–whatever, then it’s self-plagerism.
The latter you can get away with; the former you can’t–beacause, like I said, it’d just be funny to sue yourself (not to mention pointless and more than a little obscure).
You can however nail someone for ripping your original ideas off–provided you’ve got a good lawyer, can prove that the composition in question is yours, and so on, and so on, and so on (sorry–I’m not a lawyer and know absolutely nothing about the technicalities of the judicial system–among other things, as I’m sure everyone has noted)!
Elfman has got to be one of teh greatest composers of all time. He does stuff no one has ever thought to do, and for Horner, he needs to get some new themes, they are all getting worn out. Elfman has never plajorized himself, and never will, everything thing he has done is fresh.
Elfman has got to be one of the greatest composers of all time. He does stuff no one has ever thought to do, and for Horner, he needs to get some new themes, they are all getting worn out. Elfman has never plajorized himself, and never will, everything thing he has done is fresh.
infynitie,maybe you’re right, but i remember in the movie there was the same motive from braveheart and it kept comming back, i think not only in the trailer was it but it was also in the ‘moments’ in the film. by the way what do these two films have in common?
hey, paul, i think thats too much what you’ve said. He is one of the best of present film music composers, but he’s not the best composer ever.And he does stuff people used to do, but in modern way so we all like it, because people don’t like the ‘old garbage’. I guess. I did not mean that he’s not original though. And one question. Is there a fan war between fans of Danny and this Horner guy?(which in my ignorance, hopefully blissful, i havent listen to)
“Elfman has never plajorized himself, and never will”
Well, I wouldn’t go THAT far.
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