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Here’s a commerical for 1994’s The Shadow using Danny Elfman’s Darkman theme. Both movies were made by Universal.
It’s an OK score, but I’m tired of all the Goldsmith fanatics who in all seriousness claim that there’s no Elfman influence in this score.
Oh brother! I bet Batman was temped from top to bottom on the Shadow! Still a cool score, though. Love the percussion and the Waxman touches.
I’m a HUGE “Shadow” fan. I love the movie, I loooove the score. I’m far from being a Goldsmith fan.
I prefer Elfman’s music by far!
But seriously, I muss say I don’t really see any Elfman influence in the Shadow… It has that special Goldsmith touch! I don’t get that eternal comparison.Nothing to add here, other than mutual love for Goldsmith’s score for THE SHADOW. In fact, I think I’ll play it right….now…..
Wow! At one point in that commercial, he morphs from old Daniel Baldwin to a young Alec. Crazy what they can do with effects these days.
boingomusic Wrote:
> I’m a HUGE “Shadow” fan. I love the movie, I
> loooove the score. I’m far from being a Goldsmith
> fan.
>
> I prefer Elfman’s music by far!
> But seriously, I muss say I don’t really see any
> Elfman influence in the Shadow… It has that
> special Goldsmith touch! I don’t get that eternal
> comparison.I think it’s as obvious as the Pope wearing a hat, and am really flabbergasted when people claim they CANNOT hear it. The Goldsmith touch is unmistakable, of course, but the dark, foreboding brass, the “gothic” interval leaps and the general ambiance is very much cut from the same cloth that Elfman defined with BATMAN and onwards. Then again, you could say that the entire FILM wouldn’t have been made without the success of the Burton film, so the resemblance is kinda given in the respect.
I still don’t get it. Goldsmith uses a different orchestral palette, enhanced with exotic percussion, electronic effects, the sliding brass (whale-like) motif, that all set it apart from Elfman’s BATMAN.
rkeaveney Wrote:
> I still don’t get it. Goldsmith uses a different
> orchestral palette, enhanced with exotic
> percussion, electronic effects, the sliding brass
> (whale-like) motif, that all set it apart from
> Elfman’s BATMAN.Yeah, but beyond those specific tools and trademarks, the whole thing is DRENCHED in Elfman “ambiance”, approach and style. It’s literally Goldsmith channelled through Elfman. Quite fascinating, because the late maestro didn’t often quote other composers’ STYLE so specifically.
TenderLumpling Wrote:
> the whole thing is DRENCHED in Elfman “ambiance”
>
> Hmm, could you be a little more specific?I was, a couple of posts up.
The “wagnerian” interval leaps, the foreboding brass, the large, minor-mode melodies. BATMAN was so successful that it is only natural that “dark superhero” films would be made in the years following it, and that they all would refer more or less to the same recipe, including the score.
Just as Stu Phillips’ BATTLESTAR GALACTICA did STAR WARS or “wailing woman” post-GLADIATOR or Powell’s “Bourne riff” in contemporary action films following the success of the Matt Damon vehicle.
I don’t know. That’s pretty vague. Perhaps you could point to two cues that I can compare. I have both albums.
It’s all over the score (and if you can’t hear what I find blatantly obvious, no matter what I say will make any difference to you). But hey….put on the “main title”. It’s there from the get-go.
Aside from the main title, which sounds like Waxman’s Prince Valiant, everything else in The Shadow sounds like a Jerry Goldsmith score.
Take this, for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT-Thhj_jmM
Aside from the “Hammer horror” brass, Jerry’s fingerprints are all over this.
TenderLumpling Wrote:
> Aside from the main title, which sounds like
> Waxman’s Prince Valiant, everything else in The
> Shadow sounds like a Jerry Goldsmith score.
>
> Take this, for example:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT-Thhj_jmM
>
> Aside from the “Hammer horror” brass, Jerry’s
> fingerprints are all over this.Of course it is. I never said it did NOT sound like Goldsmith. It has his trademarks here and there all the way through. However, it’s still INFLUENCED by Elfman, even that track. It’s especially evident in the wide-open interval leaps of the main theme, the very dramatic, gothic style that he defined with BATMAN. Are you seriously suggesting that you canNOT hear that? In the track you posted, let’s say – just to have a specific point – between 1:50-2:25??
It’s especially evident in the wide-open interval leaps of the main theme, the very dramatic, gothic style that he defined with BATMAN.
There’s a theme in The Burbs (1988) that has that same gothic style. Elfman isn’t the owner of that style, he just, very wisely, made it popular. So who’s imitating who?
I still don’t hear it
BATMAN was my first Elfman score. THE SHADOW was my first Goldsmith CD. I know these two quite well, and I’ve never made a connection.
*sigh*
It’s interesting, isn’t it? We’re all humans equipped with working ears in this forum (one would assume), yet we obviously hear something so RADICALLY differently?! To me – and many like me – THE SHADOW has always been – and still is – one of the most obvious Elfman hommages in the history of film music.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one (or rather accept that we hear things differently).
THE SHADOW has always been – and still is – one of the most obvious Elfman hommages in the history of film music
Well, not really. To begin with, Danny Elfman has imitated Bernard Herrmann a lot. So, a lot of times what sounds like an Elfman homage is really just a Hermann homage. Like, for example, one might listen to John Williams’ Minority Report score and think it’s Elfman-inspired but it’s really just Herrmann. HOWEVER, that being said, you are correct that Elfman’s Batman theme was influential among FILMMAKERS. They wanted their superhero movies to have the “Batman sound.” I mean, heck, we all saw that commerical with the Elfman score. The studio wasn’t even trying to hide it. So, whatever Elfman-esque sounds you hear in the Shadow score is just Jerry Goldsmith trying to please his bosses. It’s no different than in Star Trek where he did a John Williams/Star Wars-esque score.
So, whatever Elfman-esque sounds you hear in the Shadow score is just Jerry Goldsmith trying to please his bosses.
Bingo.
Descent Into Mystery Wrote:
> Well, not really. To begin with, Danny Elfman has
> imitated Bernard Herrmann a lot. So, a lot of
> times what sounds like an Elfman homage is really
> just a Hermann homage. Like, for example, one
> might listen to John Williams’ Minority Report
> score and think it’s Elfman-inspired but it’s
> really just Herrmann.That would be true if you only listened to the sound itself. However, since this is film music it’s always a matter of CONTEXT and HOW the music is being used. For example, when all the EDWARD SCISSORHANDS-like “oohs” and “aahs” appear in magical or Christmassy settings in commercials and films, it’s usually a reference to the Elfman score. Even though the SOUND itself obviously pre-dates Elfman (Saint-Saens, for example). In this case, it’s a matter of a film that is clearly molded on the same “dark superhero” style that made BATMAN so popular. So it is only natural it looked to that film and what made it so popular. The score was one of the factors. Do you really think THE SHADOW would have been made – and made in THAT style – had it not been for the success of BATMAN in 89?
> So, whatever Elfman-esque sounds you hear
> in the Shadow score is just Jerry Goldsmith trying
> to please his bosses.Sure, that may be true, but that doesn’t make it sound like Elfman any less.
that doesn’t make it sound like Elfman any less
Yeah, but you said it was a homage when it clearly isn’t. Jerry Goldsmith was just pleasing the director. No different than in Star Trek when he was asked to do a Star Wars/John Williams-esque score.
I don’t think anyone has ever homaged Danny Elfman. He has been ripped off, but I don’t know if that counts as homage. When John Ottman quoted Planet of the Apes in one of Superman Returns tracks, is that stealing or an homage?
In television, however, I have noticed some Elfman homages. I mean…I can’t be the only one who hears Elfman in this:
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