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NOTE: I would like to say a few things about this post in retrospect. First, I apologize for the jumbled nature of it all. When I started this Thread, I originally meant to only ask the question; for some odd reason, I felt compelled to continue writing, and this pseudo-essay is very improvisatory in nature…I did not form my thoughts into some neat outline or anything of the sort before writing. Also, I wrote some things that I am not entirely sure are true: in fact, I would not be surprised to learn that some of the things I wrote are just incorrect. I also seemed to have used this post to voice my feelings towards Danny Elfman’s music, past and present, and the “public” perception of his music, past and present. Regardless of these flaws and what must be many more, I hope that I can provoke at least a little thought. I am very much looking forward to what you guys have to say on the matter.
HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGEEEEE POST AHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This may seem like a silly question, but I ask it in response to many (not on this website, though, from what I can see) who believe that Danny Elfman just does not write interesting music anymore …in fact, it seems to be the popular opinion of him (his talent began to decline after Men in Black, apparently). I was not quite sure what to think of that statement: after all, there are a few Danny Elfman scores of this century that I do not really like (though each one still has some great highlights)…Planet of the Apes, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Terminator: Salvation, and I may be able to go on for a bit longer.
However, I began to question that claim as soon my ear was treated to the sonic ambrosia that goes by the name of Serenada Schizophrana. Like Nino Rota’s concert works, it retains many of the stylistic trademarks that Danny Elfman has made known in his film scores, yet it has the creativity and naturalness that a film could never allow. And so I thought, “No way could he be declining, how could he have written his (current) magnum opus if that were so?”And then another thought dawned on me…what if he has yet to reach his “prime”, his “peak”?
While obviously no composer is the same, I think of John Williams, who did not reach his “prime” until the early 1970’s (as believed by myself and many others), about two decades after he started writing for film. The most significant difference between the two men, I think (and I believe Danny Elfman may have even addressed this in an interview), is that John Williams slowly rose in the public “eye”, and while he was very, very high when he did, it was a very gradual rise. Danny Elfman, however, flew immediately into the public eye four years after his film scoring debut with Batman: with this one score alone, he was lauded as one of the great film composers.
There is a phrase that I believe goes something like…”From the top, one can only go down.” Well, with Danny Elfman being placed on so high a pedestal by the public, where else could he go? While Danny Elfman still enjoyed popularity and success (not necessarily from the “uninitiated” public) in the early 1990’s, with scores such as The Nightmare Before Christmas, Edward Scissorhands, and Dick Tracy, something was beginning to change in Danny, something that would ultimately earn him derision from even his most ardent fans…he learnt depth and subtlety.
I admit to not being familiar with all of Danny’s work from the early 1990’s, but I would feel comfortable betting that it began with 1995’s Dolores Claiborne. That is not to say that some of his earlier scores did not have any, but Dolores Claiborne seems to me to be the first time in which he wrote primarily if not entirely in that fashion. I cannot speak for anyone really, but I would imagine that anyone who purchased the album expecting an easy and fun listen as one would expect from the man who wrote Batman, The Nightmare Before Christmas, and the Simpsons Theme would have been sorely disappointed. As would become very prevalent as his career would (and continues to) progress, not all of the nuances and colors of the music could be (easily) identified in one or a few listens…unlike scores such as Batman (I am beginning to feel reluctant using it as an example, out of fear of becoming too repetitive), where its “inner workings”, if you will, are more or less bared to the listener the first time through. It is rather obvious by listening to Dolores Claiborne that Danny Elfman was more concerned with sonority and texture rather than memorable melody. This approach, while very effective in my opinion, would ultimately lead to a schism among Danny Elfman fans, one that continues to this day.
(Possible digression: It may be interesting to note that Dolores Claiborne was written in the same year that Oingo Boingo disbanded. While this is a certainly a “stretch”, the score could be interpreted as symbolic of the death of the old “rock star” Danny Elfman and the birth of the “new” Danny Elfman, one who felt less obligated to write a memorable “hook”, which is obviously a “mainstay” of rock music.)
Even though Danny Elfman continued to write “lighter” scores such as Men in Black, Flubber, and Mars Attacks!, his oeuvre began to be increasingly filled with more serious works; Good Will Hunting and A Simple Plan, just to name a couple. As with Dolores Claiborne, Danny Elfman did not seem to worry himself too much with memorable melodies, again relying more on the ultimate tone or “soundscape”. This approach would not become limited to his drama scores, as we would all discover. The emphasis of harmonics and tone over melody would be evident even in his “blockbuster scores” such as Spider-Man and its sequel.
Fans would become increasingly off-put by this “new” approach of Elfman’s, it seems; indeed, in conversations with self-proclaimed “old-Elfman fans”, they all either explicitly or implicitly stated that they felt betrayed by Elfman, who “just does not know how to write a memorable theme anymore”. Then came the conclusion that Danny Elfman has passed his “fertile stage”, his “creative peak”, his “prime”. However, as I said in the beginning of this post, I feel that he has not reached his creative peak yet, with some of his arguably finest works being written in this century if not a little earlier.
I would like to know what you guys think of the question that serves as the Thread title.
Now THERE’s a rant!
People separate Danny’s career in different epochs, but personally I’ve always put MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE as THE major turning-point score after his more straightforward 80’s and early 90’s material (with lots of Herrmann and Rota pastiche). That’s where he got all hung up in counterpoints with conflicting melodic lines and harmonies and complex textures and all that, what some critics label a “noisy soundscape”. And in a way, I agree with them. The period between M:I up to, let’s say, CHARLIE (appr. 10 years) is filled with such scores that are overly noisy and dense, stuff that can even be grating if you get too much of it (MARS ATTACKS, FLUBBER, THE FRIGHTENERS, MEN IN BLACK, HULK and the SPIDERMAN scores are good examples). There are obviously exceptions to the rule, but that’s the overall trend.
Then from CHARLIE, you have stuff like….well, CHARLIE, CORPSE BRIDE, WANTED, S.O.P., THE KINGDOM, TERMINATOR, MILK….they’re all either very playful or very mature, a kind of merger between the 80’s/early 90’s Elfman and his more recent style. I’m sure his venture into the concert world around then has something to do with it too.
So if you call this recent period his fourth (first there was the Mystic Knights period, then the 80’s/early 90’s scores, then the “noisy” period from 1996 to 2005, then the playful/mature period), well then I think it’s safe to say that we’ve not seen the last of Elfman’s musical development.
I think that he’s entering his peak as an orchestral composer right now – in his 50’s and into his 60’s.
This is a very subjective question, but I will say that in 2008 he wrote four very interesting and diverse scores, and I loved all four of them. HELLBOY II in particular in one of my all time favorites.
My least favorite period of his music is from 1998 – 2001. I just don’t listen to (or especially like) much of what he wrote there. If you asked me this question then, I might have been a little more downbeat. Since 2004 or so, however, his music has arguably been better than it has ever been, producing several works that I’ve enjoyed playing over and over — SPIDER-MAN 2, SERENADA SCHIZOPHRANA, CHARLOTTE’S WEB, et al.
Danny is STILL an amazing and talented film and TV composer. However, that being said, he has indeed past his prime. 1985-1994 is an era he’ll never be able to repeat. From Pee-Wee to Black Beauty! Talk about an era of AMAZING music. 1995-97 was good too but he got too experimental and percussion heavy. 1998-2001 was his worst era. Some scores were good, like Sleepy Hollow and Planet of the Apes, but overall he composed some of his most un-memorable scores. If not, his most un-memorable. He rebounded in 2002 with Spider-Man and has continued to write great music, some even outside cinema and TV, but it’s no where near the brilliance of 85-94.
Is ’85 to ’94 really Elfman’s best era?
Aside from a few Burton classics, he still did Back to School, Wisdom, Summer School, Big Top Pee-wee, Hot to Trot, and Article 99.
And those scores are all well and fine, but I find his recent scores far more consistent. (See: below).
As for the “Elfman doesn’t write memorable themes anymore” argument, well, that’s just silly. Themes from Wanted, Corpse Bride, Terminator, Serenada, Red Dragon, SOP, Nacho Libre, Big Fish, Fable, and Hulk are fantastic. So, is Elfman past his prime due to his theme writing? Obviously not.
Obviously nostalgia for those older Burton movies certainly falls into play here. I mean, Hellboy 2 was a HUGE Elfman throwback score. The fact that it didn’t make a bigger splash among some listeners proves my point that nostalgia plays a huge factor.
You know… in a way, I can see the “theme” argument. Danny Elfman, like his hero Bernard Herrmann, seems to rely more on short motivic cells rather than “full-blown” themes as much as he did in the past. As was said earlier, 2008 was a very diverse year for Danny Elfman, and Wanted and Hellboy II: The Golden Army show very well the contrasts between these differing approaches, I think. Though I was not around for it, I believe there was much praise for Wanted due to the fact that it contained arguably the “strongest” theme that Danny Elfman has written this decade(one can hear it once and say: THEME!). Hellboy II: The Golden Army, however…well, the whole score reminds me of a Herrmann-Harryhausen collaboration anyways, so it surprises me very little, but it relies on short motivic cells that can more or less be “mutated” at will, with extreme ease (Herrmann’s justification, though not necessarily Elfman’s, was that long melodies create too much “baggage” for convenience). Also, given that they are so short (and expertly integrated into the texture of the non-thematic underscore), one tends to have troubles identifying them immediately, which can lead to some initial frustration…I remember us having a nice discussion about how we all disliked Hellboy II: The Golden Army during our first listens, only for us to change our minds once we “got it”…. To abruptly finish this second rant, I am personally fine with either thematic approach, so long as it serves the good of the overall “presentation”, so to speak. Just my thoughts.
Elfman made a name for himself with his early scores in the late 80’s and early 90’s. In all reality, I would count this as the first stage in his composing career. The Mystic Knights and Oingo Boingo did not require elaborate compositions or complex orchestrations, and much less hours upon hours of composing by the piano (or whatever other means of composing he uses).
Elfman himself has said that The Mystic Knights was his musical training, and that Oingo Boingo was a fun gig to write a few songs, produce an Album, and then go on tour. His real development as a composer began with Pee-Wee’s Big Adventure.
Artists are always measured on how they manage to break into the scene, and if they manage to make a career they are then judged by ‘eras’ or ‘stages’. In a recent thread about The Beatles: you have their Pop Roots, their Studio Development Years, their Transcendental Meditation/Drug Years, and their Final Years as a group before each member branched out into their own. It’s wrong to say Elfman reached his peak in the early days simply because of memorable melodies. Fans who don’t enjoy Elfman nowadays are probably the same as why Ryan doesn’t enjoy the Beatles in their later years. You can’t expect an artist’s output to be the same for decades and decades—-that would be the exact opposite of creativity. His period after Mission Impossible has been motivated by more contrapuntal and leitmotif driven writing.
I would say his 3rd period as a composer kicked off with Serenada Schizophrana, in which he incorporates more elements from the Art Music world and from his previous two eras. Milk, in my humble opinion, is one of his most (if not THE most) mature (and underrated!!) works in his career thus far.
I do not think he’s reached his fullest potential yet. I think we have a lot to look forward to with his new “stage” as a composer. I’m certain he’ll further exploit it with his Opera. How exciting.
TenderLumpling, yes, `85-94 was his best era. To begin with, don’t insult Back to School, Wisdom, Big Top Pee-Wee, and Hot to Trot. Those were great scores…even if the movies themselves weren’t so good. Summer School and Article 99 you can insult if you want.
But, anyway, that era gave us:
Pee-Wee
Beetlejuice
Midnight Run
Scrooged
Batman
“The Simpsons” Theme
“Tales of the Cyrpt” Theme
“Beetlejuice: The Animated Series” Theme
Nightbreed
Dick Tracy
Darkman
Edward Scissorhands
“The Flash” Theme
Batman Returns
“Batman: The Animated Series” Theme
Sommersby
“March of the Dead” from Army of Darkness
The Nightmare Before Christmas
Black BeautyFace it, Elfman is never gonna top those 9 years. 100 years from now those are the scores people are gonna remember. That was the defining Elfman era. Batman! Simpsons! Edward Scissorhands! Nightmare Before Christmas! When people think Elfman that’s the first thing that pops into their head.
mubneosic, I agree but not really. 1985-1994 was 9 years. 9 years! That’s almost a decade worth of music. And Elfman did evolve during that era. You can’t compare Pee-Wee to Batman or Batman to Edward Scissorhands. He did evolve and tried different things.
2002-Present has been a great time for Elfman. Spider-Man, Hulk, Red Dragon, Big Fish, Willy Wonka, and Wanted to name a few. But as great as those scores are they’re not in the same league as the ones in `85-94. Wanted came close. As did Spider-Man 2. And even the songs on Willy Wonka. But overall he’s gotten too percussion heavy and not enough “in your face” themes.
Lovely post, mubneosic, I absolutely agree (for what that is worth). And are you sure Danny Elfman is writing an opera?
Wait, I need to clarify a few things. By Opera I OBVIOUSLY meant Broadway show, haha.
Next, Decent Into Mystery, what my post meant to emphasize is the different ‘stages’ in an artists’ life. Obviously a composer will evolve from score to score. I agree with you that Edward Scissorhands is no Beetlejuice and so on—-but they all fall under his first stage as a composer (I would say 85-95, although you guys don’t seem to like Elfman’s output in 95 for whatever reason). This era is characterized by his whimsical/melodic characteristics, and obviously his most popular. You can argue that this is his best era, and that’s fine, but you cannot argue that he is ‘passed his prime’ because he no longer writes catchy tunes. Elfman once said of Goldsmith (and one of Goldsmith’s contemporaries, I cannot remember) that when Goldsmith didn’t write melodies, it is not because he couldn’t, but because he chose not to do so. I constantly hear everyone give Elfman beef saying that he cannot write a good solid melody anymore, when in all reality he has simply moved on from this approach. There are an infinite amount of ways to paint a picture, and melody is only one of them. Is it THAT important to people? Do you characterize ‘prime’ with the ability to write one big master melody. Let us remember that Danny Elfman is very much a postmodernist composer. John Williams is a modernist composer (and an amazing one at that).
Like I said, his second era as a composer would be 96-04. He is driven with strong percussive writing and messy counterpoints.
His third and present stage started in 05. His concert work seemed to make him more conscious as a ‘composer’ and not just a ‘film composer’. Plus I hear influences of the Art Music world (ex. Philip Glass) more often in his writing.
His second and third stages as a composer emphasize his theory of “building blocks” to build a score. Rather than having elaborate melodies he has elaborate motifs that influence one another. If anything, I would say this is rather more ingenious when listening to the way he brings these thematic ideas together.
But in the end I will say that I very much doubt Elfman will ever return to the way he approached composing from 85-95. This may be a sad truth for many fans
but tough luck, it happens with artists (music, art, writing, filmmaking) all the time. I love Stravinsky’s earlier output (particularly his ballet’s), but hey he moved on and eventually adopted serialism and used all sorts of different approaches. Am I going to say his career as a composer peaked with his ballet’s because of stronger thematic elements? Probably not. His entire lifetime is hailed as an achievement. I believe Elfman will be the same.“you cannot argue that he is ‘passed his prime’ because he no longer writes catchy tunes.”
I think you can. Spider-Man is no where as good as Batman. Corpse Bride is no where as good as Nightmare Before Christmas. Charlotte’s Web is no where as good as Black Beauty. See, the problem is that Elfman may have evolved as a composer but he hasn’t evolved in the movie choices he makes. So, he hurts himself through comparisons. Wanted, for example, was a step in the right direction for him. During his `85-94 heyday he never composed pure action movies. Mission: Impossible in 1996 was his first. And Proof of Life in `98/`99 was his second. And, Wanted was a million times better than those. Red Dragon was another good choice. It was his first true horror-thriller. So, there was nothing to compare it to and you enjoyed it for what it was.
Then you make a very valid point, and I agree with you. Elfman has confined himself to very similar projects (even though he is one of the most versatile composers out there……if that makes sense). But I think he realizes this, which is why he has branched out into other mediums of composing (i.e., concert work, ballet, musical).
But I disagree with you about Batman to Spider-man. Both are very different heroes, different tone, and Elfman developed music for them in two different eras. Spider-man 2 is one of Elfman’s finest achievements as a composer—right up there with Batman.
I agree about Corpse Bride versus Nightmare before Christmas
And again, I disagree about Charlotte’s Web versus Black Beauty.
…but now we are simply arguing favorites—-which in all reality no one can really win since it is very subjective.
But I think it is rather harsh to say that his lack of melodies make him weaker. Like I said before, music is very complex and melody is but one element of it. If you want a SIMPLE answer to prime in terms of melody, then yes
he is passed his prime. Passed his prime as an overall composer? Not at allWARNING!!!
>>> RANT!!!So we are arguing about the quality of Elfman’s music for movies, right?
Um…. can I bring up the point(unless it’s already been brought up… too tired to read every single word)… that Elfman does not have COMPLETE freedom… because, It is not HIS movies he’s scoring.. he’s doing a job. He is collaborating to fit the needs of someone else’s vision! He can’t express himself fully as a composer… that is why Serenada Schizophrana was so freaking awesome. He was commissioned to write a piece of music but they didn’t have specific requirements.
I think that is a big part of it.
Now some may argue this point. He DOES have a lot more freedom with Burton, Raimi, etc.. Yes he does. Your right. But Tim Burton and Sam Raimi don’t keep making the same movies… We don’t see more BATMANS or DARKMANS or EDWARDS…The film makers’ films change. It’s what they want to do. What they feel like! Elfman has to do different movies with these people. You don’t get the same product. It changes. Of course CORPSE BRIDE isn’t going to be like NIGHTMARE. They are totally different. So what, they are both Stop Motion Animation… that doesn’t mean they are similar in quality.. Especially when it comes to the music. And You cannot compare BLACK BEAUTY to CHARLOTTE… Completely different… “they both have talking animals in them“… but not similar. Sorry.
Yes, Decent Into Mystery, You are correct that 85-94 was an AMAZING period! But that is not his PRIME. A film composer can have no prime. He isn’t a regular composer… He’s a film composer. The same can be said for Williams, Steiner, Herrmann, Korngold, Newman(all 50 trillion Newmans)… etc.! They work for other people. Every composer has a time in their life were they can dish out greatness, but it does not mean they don’t stay consistent as a composer.
In my mind, it all comes down to the versatility of the composers. Elfman is amazing when it comes the being versatile. He does the work he is called to do, and he does it well.
Of course this is all opinionated. You can sit here and argue that BATMAN is better that BATMAN RETURNS or EDWARD SCISSORHANDS is better than BLACK BEAUTY, but it’s all pointless in the end. Elfman is a great composer who knows what he is doing and has not changed in excellence for 1 minute. You can love old Elfman, you can love new Elfman. It’s up to you. But I think, all around, from 1985 to today(and for the rest of his career), Elfman is in his Prime!
…
” He isn’t a regular composer… He’s a film composer. The same can be said for Williams, Steiner, Herrmann, Korngold, Newman(all 50 trillion Newmans)… etc.!”
That statement is a fallacy. John Williams, Bernard Herrmann, Erich Korngold, as well as some others have written more than a few concert works, enough so to not just be considered a “side avenue” (Williams and Korngold especially).
Consider that Elfman has only been composing for Films since 1985 (Forbidden Zone being more of an extension of his Oingo Boingo days) – That’s ONLY 25 years now! I say it like that because Williams has been a film composer since 1958 (liken his earlier work in TV and Radio with Danny’s Oingo Boingo days) – That would mean you could say that Williams peaked at Star Wars, Jaws, Superman, and Raiders. But after which he produced so much more great music like Jurassic Park, Schindler’s List, and A.I. just to name a few. Elfman has a lot more time, and music left, and cinema will change a few more times in the upcoming years that will allow him to grow as an film composer – if it doesn’t then he has shown that he won’t put up with temp-work and will gravitate towards work that will let him express himself. I’m just glad, like Williams, that he’s not a sheep like other composers tend to become.
TenderLumpling, yes, `85-94 was his best era. To begin with, don’t insult Back to School, Wisdom, Big Top Pee-Wee, and Hot to Trot. Those were great scores…even if the movies themselves weren’t so good. Summer School and Article 99 you can insult if you want.
Well, I don’t think I was insulting anything. I did say “those scores are all well and fine,” maybe that came off negatively, I don’t know. As an Elfman fan, I find that stuff to be great. Though, very quaint compared to his standards today.
But, as I said before, aside from some great gems, I find Elfman’s recent stuff far more consistent.
100 years from now those are the scores people are gonna remember.
People are gonna remember Midnight Run a hundred years from now?
“you cannot argue that he is ‘passed his prime’ because he no longer writes catchy tunes.”
I think you can. Spider-Man is no where as good as Batman. Corpse Bride is no where as good as Nightmare Before Christmas.
Well, I don’t see how Nightmare being better than Corpse Bride makes the Corpse Bride score unmelodic, and, by extension, not catchy.
“I disagree with you about Batman to Spider-man. Both are very different heroes, different tone”
Darkman is a different hero and tone from Batman yet both scores were great. Being a different hero and tone doesn’t affect the quality of the work. The Spider-Man score simply isn’t anywhere near as good as Batman. Then again, Batman is considered one of Elfman’s 3 best along with Edward Scissorhands and Nightmare Before Christmas. So, perhaps it’s a bit harsh to compare the two. But…that’s what people are gonna do. It’s two big superheroes and the two biggest movies that Elfman has composed. So, it’s hard not to compare.
Uhm, no. That’s a very weak comparison. Batman is dark in its tone, and so is DARKman. Spider-man was MUCH lighter compared to the both of them (and again, written by Elfman during a different stage in his career!).
I don’t think you are understanding my point. You keep reverting back to subjective favorites (in which no one will EVER win). You like Batman. You hate Spider-man. Ok. That’s not my point. Batman and Spider-man have NOTHING in common except the fact that they are superhero films. Their music was written 13 years apart. Same genre automatically entails a score of the same caliber? What about other factors? Studio, director, story, characterization, history of the franchise, current events and influences in Elfman’s life?
I’ll have you know that Spider-man was actually the score that made me aware of film music and Danny Elfman altogether. Sure I went back and listened to all his old scores and loved them, but I didn’t think Spider-man and Batman were in the same tier simply because they were superheros. Each was a masterpiece in its own right written years and years apart.
“You keep reverting back to subjective favorites”
This entire thread is subjective. And for the record, I don’t hate Spider-Man. I think it’s a great score and the one he rebounded with after 98-01 which consisted of mostly un-memorable scores.
I wasn’t talking about their concert works… We aren’t arguing about Concert works. We’re here for the Film music stuff. You want to compare every single work Williams or Korngold has done, Elfman has a long way to go.
What I was talking about was the JOB Elfman has and how it effects his music. He does not have complete freedom.
…
very subjective topic. question won’t really be able to be answered objectively until Elfman’s career has ended, no? Afterall, there’s no telling what the future will bring!
I will say that ‘A Simple Plan’ may very well be my favorite Elfman score (as a standalone listening experience, or in the context of the film) and that’s from 1998, which is apparently one of his “bad” years.
So.. yeah.
Yeah, I agree. It’s all subjective. Personally, I think “Simple Plan” is a bore. “Good Will Hunting” was boring too, but he also did “Men in Black” in `97 so he balanced himself out. But `98 had no balance. “A Civil Action” is easily one of his most forgettable scores. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that 1998 was his worst year.
I think it’s a great score and the one he rebounded with after 98-01 which consisted of mostly un-memorable scores.
To be fair, Elfman didn’t score that many movies during that time. That said, I’d consider A Simple Plan, Sleepy Hollow, and Planet of the Apes Elfman masterpieces. Family Man is also very good.
very subjective topic. question won’t really be able to be answered objectively until Elfman’s career has ended, no?
Indeed. That’s just what I thought when I first read this thread title.
“To be fair, Elfman didn’t score that many movies during that time. That said, I’d consider A Simple Plan, Sleepy Hollow, and Planet of the Apes Elfman masterpieces. Family Man is also very good. “
A Simple Plan
A Civil Action
Instinct
Anywhere But Here
Sleepy Hollow
Proof of Life
The Family Man
Spy Kids
Planet of the ApesI think you may wanna re-think that statement. Plus, of all those score only four were good. Sleepy Hollow, The Family Man, Spy Kids, and Planet of the Apes.
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