to boingo music

[hobbestheprince]

Hey there, I noticed you have your e-mail disabled and your private message disabled as well, so I figured I would try to reach you through here.

I really liked your myspace stuff, especially the Danny Elfman inspired song … I was wondering if perhaps I can give you my e-mail or you can private message me or something, or even reply on here about some questions I have regarding your composing. I’m a composer too, and I was just wondering what you typically do to achieve a more “Danny Sound” for lack of a better term. I’m sure alot of people will say, “Write in a minor key …” but it’s more than that … I mean chords he typically uses, etc. I read he uses the tritone once in a while, and uses the phrygian scale in alot of his old work, which I really love.

Any help would be appreciated.

Eric

P.S. We have the same name

[Anonymous]

i`ll add in my 2pence here (i hope you dont mind)

if you have the music to listen to then you have most of the answers already (some might say all of the important ones, it depends on the type of composition and what one considers “understanding” to be, i can expand on this point if you like)

firstly play the piano or guitar or whatever instrument you have over the piece you are interested in, try and work out what key or keys it is in. (i dont think elfman writes atonal/pantonal music, ive not heard any anyway)

this will develop your ear and may turn up some interesting ideas (normally when you get it “wrong”, i.e. even if you try to copy a piece often your own tastes and idiosyncracies come through and it sounds different and more like you, the inability to hear and reproduce every detail is a positive in such instances, imo anyway)

and of course get hold of the scores, then you will know exactly whats going on regards the harmony. (but dont rely on them, use your ears as much as possible, ive noticed from teaching music that students tend to think their aural ability is fixed, like its genetic, well there may be some genetic basis to pitch acuity however the vast majority of it is learned, its practice practice practice, you get out what you put in, and as goethe said…..”to achieve it, deserve it”

(apologies for my slightly avuncular and possibly sententious tone, ive been lecturing people all day)

[hobbestheprince]

Good point, and thanks for the reply. I’ll have to get a hold of some sheet music and do some analysis. I’m pretty hard-working when it comes to music, I was just hoping perhaps someone already knew of a common “thread” in Danny’s music. I really like his strings that seem to sweep downwards as well, I’m guessing those are just appregios of some sort … but I’ll look into it.

I was actually thinking of taking a different approach with a few of my new songs, and perhaps turning some of his trademarks into my songs … but on the guitar i.e. sweeping strings changed into descending pull-offs on the guitar. Just for a different sound I guess. I need some inspiration to get recording again, I’ve had writer’s block for a little while and this idea gives me a bit of energy to come forth and make some songs.

-Eric

[Anonymous]

i see where you are coming from re asking about common threads etc, i was doing a similar thing on this board asking about the exact mode (s) used in the simpsons theme (working out whether only one mode is used in a piece as dense and fast paced as the simpsons theme without the score is quite challenging imo, its the difference of a couple of intervals here and there and if someone has already done the analysis then one might aswell use it, however i think its good to try and work out as much as you can by ear first as its a very productive process imo, creative in its own way)

infact my reason for registering on this board was to get access to the wealth of elfman knowledge here (and soundtrack knowledge to some extent) so im not claiming to work everything out myself (or suggesting its practical)

im not a huge fan of Elfmans work but I like the Simpsons theme alot and everything else i have heard from him is decent soundtrack stuff imo (much better than most things i hear on films) and he has his own style/atmosphere which is part of why i respect his work and recognise it when i hear it.

i dont like most of the films I have seen that he has scored though, his music is outclasses them as per my tastes and so does the Simpsons, some of the films are ok hollywood fair i suppose but i would rather watch something slower and more open like a tarkovsky film, if you havent seen any tarkovsky i recommend Solaris as a good place to start, it was called the russian 2001, but actually its much better in my view, 2001 is brilliantly photographed, well acted, great locations and sets and design, interesting story etc, but a structural mess, there are people wearing monkey suits, he chopped up Ligeti`s music and didnt ask permission etc, give me doctor stranglelove instead, its not just a comedy, and bear in mind this is just what i think, i dont believe anyone else has to agree. (what im saying is i dont have much use for action films or simple comedies or virtually all the stuff made in mainstream english language cinema, some are entertaining and good fun but i would rather engage with something properly or not bother, english language cinema needs another orson welles, his version of kafka`s “the trial” is one of my favourite films)

enough of my elfman/film views anyway.

re sweeping strings sounds on the guitar, sounds like as good a plan as any, have you thought about using an E-bow? (or a violin bow?) could get closer to the effect than pull offs (but then pull offs might sound good too, and/or use both)

writers block……its one way of looking at things, who said you have to produce all the time?, imagine you mind/creative faculties are like a sponge, at times full of ideas, and at other times emptied out and in need of soaking up some new information. (periods of learning and experiencing new things)

if you recognise the need for both states and can learn to enjoy both then all should be well (and perhaps periods of what you call “block” are extended further by the negative “im useless” feelings which come with the concept)

(but then a period of learning/changing might be problematic if you need to meet a deadline of some sort, i would suggest avoiding deadlines or any work which requires them, unless you find deadlines inspiring or motivating as some people do, i dont, commission me and you`ll get something at some point, maybe in a week, maybe in five years, whatever it takes, looks like i wont be working in the film industry lol, well not the mainstream profit based one anyway)

and an old russian phrase says…..

in the summer we learn to skate, in the winter we learn to swim

i.e. in the time spent not doing something the skills or knowledge settle in and become part of us, sometimes doing something all the time means you dont see the wood for the trees and cannot consolidate what you have learned, and we should always be learning/developing in my opinion, look at any great composer, they did not stop developing/changing, im generalising but its more or less the truth.

sorry for long post btw, im a fast typist and enjoy writing and reading etc. (music or “ordinary” language)

[evil-dead]

http://elfman.filmmusic.com/forum/read.php?7,25560,25563#25563
Re: to boingo music

A few elfman staples I’ve picked up from listen/checking out sheet music – celste/glock outlining triads (used more than just edward scissorhands). changing tonal centers in minor thirds and back (Cmi to Ami or Eb min). Short rhythmic and melodic cells he expands upon. Also tritone key shifts (minor third x 2). Muted brass rhythmically outlining sustained chords while strings and winds hold em, and triplet figures with these guys too. You should check out the Batman film score guide – its a full analysis available from scarecrow press. Pretty good read. Oh I forgot a super elfman one – alto sax solos over orchestra (stating and embelishing the theme with softer accompaniment – this is more for his Burton scores). When he has a darker chord progression that’s slower he loves them french horns coupled with lower brass and bass clarinet on the bottom. ummmm….. also french horn and trumpet punches during suspense scenes. but yeah – alto solos – mucho celeste/glock – bass clarinet on the low end, and french horns. Oh I almost for got, string arrpeggios in ostinato. And brief harp solos (fills) instead of contant accompaniment. I would look to Bernard Herrmann for inspiration too – he’s Danny’s main man and his scores are more readily available (There’s analysis of most his Hitchcock stuff and citizen Kane – damn he rules). Sorry for rambling – I’m a nerd I know.

[hobbestheprince]

evil-dead: I’m not sure what you meant by tritone key shifts and then the x2 bit.

[boingomusic]

Hi!

First of all, thanks for your nice comments about my music.
It’s pretty hard for me to describe what gives a music that “elfman vibe”. I studied composition and improvisation, but I’ve always been an intuitive person. I hate to seat and think about theories, and what chord progressions I should use, what structure should the piece have etc… I always start by writing melodies on the piano, and then, I start imaginating the orchestrations. I read all the analysis you guys have made about Danny’s music, and I’m quite impressed, but that’s not really the way I like to proceed.

For the case of the Heartless Duke (www.myspace.com/illusionsoflight – I believe it is that song you’re talking about, right?), I wanted to write a duet between a mean ands heartless person, and an innocent little girl. Since it is a stop-motion animated short film, very inspired by Burton’s style, I wanted it to sound close to Elfman’s style without actually copying any of his melodies. I totally REFUSED to sit down and analyze Elfman’s chords progressions, because I knew I would end up copying him… I’ve been listening to elfman’s work since I’m 8years old (1988), and I felt like I could try to write my OWN music, and then give it that elfman-vibe by using the celesta, strings and pizz’… I really cannot explain, theoretically, what it is that makes that piece sound (or not) like Elfman’s work… To me, it has more to do with intuition, and feeling. Somtimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t

[Anonymous]

if you intend to use harmony in a deliberate and knowing way then you should know what a tritone modulation (key shift) is. (its common practice from at least the late romantic period onwards)

play Fsharp major then Cmajor, or vice versa, thats one of many tritone modulatons, probably the most basic/obvious. (try playing the chords on a piano using a decending arpeggio, start at the top of the pitch range and work your way down, you will know the sound, its mysterious sounding in a cheesy old hat sort of way)

then try playing both chords together, then listen to stravinskys rite of spring. (where he makes use of the same device, in a dense and aggressive orchestral context)

the tritone is very important in 20th century music, it divides the octave into two.

certain modes and scales make use of it, whole tone (listen to debussy, i recommend L’Isle Joyeuse), lydian (its the sharp4, and all the lydian related modes like lydian dominant etc, ala` the simpsons theme), the octatonic or diminished scale (listen to messiaen, try quartet for the end of time) and the altered scale (post bop/modern jazz) plus many others

and alot of atonal and/or post tonal music makes heavy use of the tritone also, schoenberg, berg and webern (second viennese school) and bartok uses it alot (try his string quartets), and its used alot in post-war serial work like in that of stockhausen and boulez and nono.

and not forgetting jazz, the tritone substitution was a key element of the bebop revolution and the interval turns up in alot of chords and scales.

no surprise elfman makes use of the interval alot, it can be used to produce tension and drama/mystery etc and it sounds very balanced and static due its symetrical relationship to the octave (delaying resolution or avoiding it entirely is a desirable trait in film music for fairly obvious dramatic reasons) (in its lydian form it sounds much prettier than in some other contexts, context is key)

i hope thats useful, (hopefully evil-dead will add his views on the interval also, ive barely scratched the surface, you could write a book on the tritone, oh and a bit of trivia, it was called the devils interval in europe from the early 18th century)

what books on harmony do you have and/or do you have a teacher?

(dont forget you are on the internet, look up the tritone)

oh and when evil-dead says x2, he means the tritone is two minor thirds, which links in with his elfman analysis about modulations by that interval (if you modulate twice by minor thirds you have a tritone modulation if you count from the starting key centre)

[Anonymous]

just to pick up what boingo music said (i think his post was posted while i was writing my last one, i just spotted it) you dont need to know anything about harmony to write harmony, you can just do it by ear, if it sounds right to you it is right.

its a personal choice, i used to write by ear in my teens and was confused by harmonic theories to some extent, i taught myself and it took years and im still learning (im 29 now), the reason i wanted to learn was because i got bored of what i could do by ear and became more interested in jazz and classical music where the vast majority of composers have an understanding of harmony (not necessarily a conventional one, you could have your own system and ignore common practice, debussy for instance was not considered a very able student in harmonic terms while at the convervatoire, but thats because he had his own ideas, he went on to develop his own powerful style and added many new things to the tradition, in some of his letters he talks about discovering new harmonic compounds as if he were a scientist experimenting with chemical structures etc, his music is not overly intellectual or difficult however, he was searching for pitch combinations which moved him and sounded new or different)

[hobbestheprince]

Listen-To-Ligeti: Thanks for all of your input. I am currently taking music in university, and it’s just a two-part intro to theory that we’ve been covering. The first half I knew most of the stuff because I taught myself, that’s how I know what a tritone is … basically whenever I wanted to learn something I would look it up on the internet and try it out. The chords used on the Simpsons theme uses tritones, that I know. There’s the C, E, F# chord that Danny uses in the opening bit which is a tritone. I’m getting Rite of Spring as I’m writing this … it’s 32 megs so I’m sure it’ll be a lengthy treat lol.

boingomusic: That’s a really good approach that you take. I used to write little things in winjammer based on a single melody, and then just build and build upon it. There were so many tricks that I learned a long time ago, but I can’t quite remember them because I was drinking pretty heavily back then. Sad but true

Here’s another question, what programs do you guys normally use when composing? I mean, I used to use winjammer, and that’s a midi program and things can sound pretty atrocious lol. I’m curious as to what you guys use for a more authentic sound. I understand people use soundfonts, but I’m not sure how to apply them or get them working or anything. Then again, I’d have to get a decent program too, although I do have Cool Edit Pro when it comes to writing my songs.

-Eric

[evil-dead]

If you’re approach is to notate as you write, I reccommend Finale. The latest version has a built in mixer, and say you were writing a piece for orchestra – the sounds are pretty good, although not the best available. If you’re sequencing your stuff and don’t care about notation, or want to notate it later, I reccomend digital performer or reason. You can always import those midi files as audio into protools and the sound banks that are stock are pretty sweet (reason has timpani rolls, superballed gong, harp glissandos, etc.) If you want to get pricy as far as sound banks and samplers, there’s tons of expensive gear out there. but if you’re just recording your own tunes, I recommend finale for notation (and/or midi input), reason for midi sequencing, and protools or logic (if you’r e an apple guy) for audio.

[evil-dead]

oh and for the tritone also check out Stravinsky’s Petrushka – there’s the “Petrushka chord” which is really an arpeggiated C major triad over an F# major triad in inversion. Alan Silverstri used it a bunch in back to the future. It’s that riff you hear (descending triads, one after another) whenever there’s a sense of tension. That’s a rad score, by the way.

[hobbestheprince]

evil-dead: Do you have any music on the net I can listen to? You seem to know alot about it … heck if anyone on this board has any music I’d love to hear some. It’s cool seeing what everyone’s style is. Oh and thanks for the suggestions … I’ll try to get Finale and see what I can do. Hope I still have it in me lol.

-Eric

[evil-dead]

I will soon. I just need to get of my arse and put it up there. So I guess all I can say is…. coming soon.

[hobbestheprince]

Cool, I’d really like to hear what some of the guys/girls came up with on the forum. I have some old works that were on my comp but were sadly deleted due to a hard drive crash. Now I have a flash drive, but too little too late I suppose, lol. I’ve been fiddling with a few ideas in my head lately so I hope I can come up with something clever. I’m lacking a little inspiration so it would be awesome to hear some other works by composers here.

On another note, I now have Serenada Schizophrana and listened to it this morning. I must say this is such a wild concert, it’s nice to see Elfman’s roots come back out in some of the pieces.

-Eric

[hobbestheprince]

I also don’t get what you mean by tonal center … I checked on the net but have no clue. Wouldn’t it be Cm to Em or Em to Gm? Again, I’m not clear on what you mean, and there’s nothing on the net suggesting what it means unless it’s a different term or something. Is it really, “tonal center?”

-Eric

[hobbestheprince]

Guess everyone lost interest in this thread … sigh. If anyone wants to chat about this stuff add me to msn, or just about anything in general

d-y-l-a-n_b-a-b-y@hotmail.com

Just remove the minus signs … that way I avoid more junk mail lol.

-Eric

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