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Youre quite wrong about danny never hearing wagner’s music when he composed batman, because he has stated previously that all his orchestral influence ranged from the russians like prokofiev and stravinsky, to germans like wagner. and berlioz’s orchestral flair can ABSOLUTELY be found in scores like mission impossible and flubber. the others mentioned are simply more subdued but no less romantic.
“I got a lot of Wagner comments after Batman came out, and I never listened to Wagner.” Danny Elfman
just because he wasnt an avid devourer of wagner’s music doesn’t mean he never HEARD wagner’s music. We all have. Most every composer for full-scale orchestra is directly or indirectly influenced by Richard Wagner, his music and-or his handling of the orchestra. its pointless to say otherwise. it doesnt matter whether elfman collects wagner’s operas or has simply heard ‘ride of the valkyries’. wagner is impossible to ignore, and scores like batman are CLEARLY influenced by wagner.
but this is a fruitless conversation because i’m providing rebuttle to statements saying that I’m trying to teach people something. I’m not trying to teach anything, i’m providing my opinion on matters, everyone here can think what they want. you don’t have to get insidious, nin cherry. I’m not trying to step on your, or anyone else’s, toes, so i’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t accuse me of preaching falsities when much of what i’m saying is historically accurate.
lets leave it at danny is great, but nothing compared to most classical composers?
im fine with that, elfmanfreak
Ok, this topic is probably dead but here is the BIGGEST mistake that you are making dmw: Elfman is a FILM composer, and writes FILM music, which is a completely different genre than… well… anything. Film music has to sound a certain way, can’t be too forward, and needs to lack a certain something because it is going with a film. Now to me alot of you are sitting there saying that Film music is not as good as romantic/classical/baroque music, and therefore you are being judgemental about an entire subject, which is stupid. Sure, I don’t like rap, but it gets to some people in a way that Elfman’s music never could. Mozart’s music doesn’t get to me as much as Elfman’s music does. See where this is going? It is a matter of PREFERANCE, nothing more. Saying that he is not as good is just a dumb prejudice because his music doesn’t affect you as much as it does some other people. This is ART people, there is no good and bad, it’s only about what you LIKE. If you want to judge it a different way though, lets just look at how MANY people like Elfman’s music. Look at how well the movies he has scored has done. Now if you stuck in Beethoven’s 9th as the score to Spider-man, would it have done as well?
Ok, now onto the SECOND mistake here. You are implying that Elfman doesn’t compose all his music, which he DOES. You need to learn about what Orchestrators do, because with all of the multi-sample setups that composers have nowdays, it has changed. Yes, they do get help, with score prep, making sure there are not any mistakes in the score, ect. but would you say that a writer who has people edit and proof-read thier novels don’t write thier own stories? On top of that, music editors usually don’t help the composer with the score at all, more about the recording. Now there are some composers who have teams that help them with scores, like Hans Zimmer, but that is a whole different story. And others have already corrected you about the instrument stuff so I’ll let it go. Now you need to have more respect for composers in general, no matter what they write, and keep your jealousies to yourself, because why the hell else would you start a topic like this?
Knight (Oh, and your Aunt is lying, because depending on what it was that she wanted Elfman to work on, it would not have been 1.5 mil unless it was a 2 hour movie. I know for a fact that Elfman didn’t get 1.5 million for his work on Fable or any other theme / commercial he has written)
knight, you are a perfect example of a person that likes to post snide little comments for the sole purpose of offending someone. im not jealous of danny, i love him and respect him and am exceedingly happy for him. i posted the original message to counter-attack falsities, much like the one in the following statement “You are implying that Elfman doesn’t compose all his music, which he DOES.”
by his own admission he doesnt compose ALL his music. for an example of this, he specifically stated that he didn’t have the time to finish some of the final action cues to darkman, so a younger composer was brought in to assist him. there is no shame in that. NO film composer does ALL their own work and no-one corrected me about any instrumental thing.
and don’t say my aunt is lying. i don’t know where you get your facts from, but scoring a television miniseries is much different that scoring a game or commercial.
im done with this post. pretty much everyone here is very nice and respectable, but it would be nice if knight didn’t feel that injecting some inflammatory remark would accentuate some sort of convoluted point he was trying to make. grow up
I should have figured on a responce like this. You just justified my post though, because Elfman said that a younger composer did some of those cues, hence they are not his, hence it is not his music. That is my point. I didn’t say that Elfman always writes ALL of the music to the films that he works on (look at Spider-man 2), but rather that the music he does write is his, and all his, INCLUDING arrangement and everything else. Don’t believe me? Listen to the mock-ups from The Nightmare Before Christmas and compare them to the recorded version. Most of the other people on here know what I am talking about.
Every composer writes ALL thier own music, except those who use ghostwriters which is much frowned upon in this industry, and there are very FEW composers who do that because if they are caught they will never work again.
Danny plays many instruments (I don’t know about 20), and as mentioned, if you watch the Farewell DVD that you will see that.
I get my facts from the industry, and is also why I take offence to this kind of stupid post that has no meaning. I am also a composer and I understand very well how much work and effort Elfman puts into his music, and how hard the industry is on even top composers (even the big guys). You don’t, so you don’t have the right to say anything about Elfman, unless you know him personally and have witnessed these things that you claim which I know you have not. If they wanted a score to a tv miniseries, then they would not have tried to get Elfman, because there is a big divide between television composers and film composers, yet another thing that you wouldn’t know about unless you where in the industry. Oh, and she is a writer? Then she wouldn’t have any say over the composer for a show unless she produced it, was the music-sup, or directed it. So my statement stands.
Yes, I am being harsh, but I am sick and tired of people like you trying to put down the work that we do. While you can sit there and say that you thing Elfman is a great composer, you are also degrading both him and his work by this post which had no meaning (why the hell do you care even if we where wrong?) and as someone that understand the industry MUCH better than you, I take direct offense to it.
Knight (Most major film composers get 1.5 mil on any project regardless whether they have orchestrators or not, now consider that to how much a major actor makes on any major project)
I am a 4 time scholarship winning composer in college for piano, composition, and history right now, so don’t patronize me. and you DONT know and understand the history ANY better than I do, otherwise you’d remember that elfman composed themes for THE SIMPSONS, FUTURAMA, AMAZING STORIES, AND TALES FROM THE CRYPT, big-shot.
before you go bragging to someone, make sure they’re as dumb as you’d like them to be.
and learn to spell
Elfman has many influences, just like every other great artist. He does have his own style, though. When you hear Elfman, you know it. That is a mark of a pure genius. Not as good as the classical composers? He is a classical composer. Classical composers get their jobs scoring films today. How else would they make a living? Things have just changed over the last 300 years.
300 years from now, Elfman will be remembered as a genius, and an outstanding classical composer of his time.
That is my opinion.
wow, i’ve just arrived at the realization that I have created an EPIC post here, one of the largest I think i’ve ever seen on this board.
hm.
Oh and Knight, I REALLY don’t want to fight with you, but I WILL get defensive when you attempt to diminish either my intelligence or abilities (i.e-saying I don’t understand what it’s like to be a composer, or denying the fact that I am one altogether). So, a truce if you accept, and hopefully you will show some level of respect for a person that DOES understand the burdens of composition as a full-time job, and life-long profession .
from one composer to another- DmW
>”and you DONT know and understand the history ANY better than I do, otherwise you’d remember that Elfman composed themes for THE SIMPSONS, FUTURAMA etc”
LOL
So Elfman did compose the theme for Futurama, huh? Is that what it says on Kazaa where you download your music (“Futurama_Theme_by_DannyElfman.mp3”) ?
It’s composed by Christopher Tyng, smart guy.
Even 4 time scholarship winning pianists, composers and musicologists should check their facts before posting here.>and learn to spell
Wow. Coming from a guy who prefers to write “i do” instead of “I do”. Who gives s-h-i-t about correct punctuation and capitalization. Who talks of “Hanz Zimmerman” instead of Hans Zimmer and “Camille Saint-Sans” instead of Camille Saint-Saëns.
You’re showing a lot of arrogance here, mister.
THANK you Nin!
I never said that Elfman didn’t write that music, but those are THEMES. I am talking about SCORE, big difference. You may be a composer, but try doing a film, it’s a whole new world when you have to write 90 min of awesome score in six weeks. You still haven’t said why you felt the need to make sure we all new that Elfman has orchestrators and stuff, which is why I felt the need to point out that you are mistaken. Overall, the main thing that you had to say is that Danny Elfman is not alone in writing his music when he indeed is. When it comes to RECORDING the music however, he is not alone, but again, the music is purely his, unless otherwise mentioned on the film or CD or whatnot because of the wonderful world of last min. edits.
Oh, and I don’t proof read what I type because I really don’t care if I make a mistake. I am not trying to impress anyone, although it sounds like you are:
“I am a 4 time scholarship winning composer in college for piano, composition, and history right now, so don’t patronize me.”
Woohoo. Who cares. Your 19, and already bagging on the industry. You don’t WORK in this industry, and have NO idea how hard it is. So don’t give me that crap. You need to step away from the “My opinion is god” thing though or you are never going to make it. Have some respect man, and don’t speak about things that you still don’t know about, because all the music history in the world will never teach you what Elfman and every other professional film composer has to go through to.
Knight (I am not attacking your intelligence or abilities, because I don’t know you, I am attacking your ideas on how things work in film because you don’t know)
so what exactly do a orchestrator and editor elfman help at?
what does danny himself and what do the others??From an Elfman interview at http://www.radcyberzine.com/text/interviews/boingo.kroq.html
Jed: OK, so it’s different. You can compose, and give them all the parts, and Steve Bartek will help you arrange it and write all the parts, but actually…
Danny: No, no, no…
Jed: …telling them how to perform it…
Danny: No, no, no, no…
Jed: …Is two different things, right?
Danny: There’s three things: Writing the music, I write the parts, I arrange the parts and write them down. Steve does the orchestration, which is he’ll break down so many parts into so many more parts. In other words…it’s kinda hard to explain; I don’t want to get into it, but it’s not like you just said.
Jed: OK, it’s more complicated.
Danny: It’s a common misconception, yeah. It’s more complicated. I write three…I might write three string parts and he’ll break them down into five and make the decision of whether the second violins are playing with the violas or the first violins. Things like that.
Jed: Uh-huh.
Danny: Because everybody has to have something…
Jed: OK, so those are orchestrations.
Danny: Those are orchestrations, exactly.
thanks cowboy burt!
so elfman does more than he’s supposed to do. he writes even the orchestral parts and bartek kind of corrects them, right? man, thats really complicated.F***ing Kazaa!
how embarrassing, that whole kazaa incident.
well, i’m going to have to give the fight up.
I could go in circles forever trying to explain myself to the fullest, but to tell you the truth its turning into a profound waste of time.To nin-cherry- That’s the end of my use of kazaa after this humiliation. I always knew that the theme was sub-par for elfman. And I don’t know why I tacked on a “man” to “Zimmer”. I know the difference, and know it well. Either an act of God or I simply wasn’t thinking.
Knight- it’s been quite a battle of the posts here, but this is a danny elfman appreciation board so I think we should leave it at that. You misconstrued a lot of what I was trying to say, I don’t know if that is because of my archaic writing style or simply because I didn’t get it out right, or simply because you read it wrong. Although I’m not working in the business, i am more aware than you think about the pressures of being a film composer. obviously not as much as someone working in the field, but better than most. It is what I aspire to become, and what I am training for. oh and that business about my aunt, I shouldn’t have left it as ‘she’s a writer, because she’s also a director (murphy brown). next time however, it would be nice if you would leave the ‘i’m so sick of people like you’ out of the posts, considering that I didn’t say or do anything inflammatory until that post. and my being 19 shouldn’t garner a ‘whoo-hoo who cares’ in regards to my accomplishments. it doesn’t make them any less important than a 30 year old’s, and those scholarships are responsible for the brunt of my tuition, which I view with some obvious reverence and importance.
it would really be nice if just a few of you were nicer and less-confrontational. it would make this place safe to come to, less Orwellian, especially when someone has nothing threatening and un-intelligent to say, and wishes to share their opinion. I hope that those few take this into account.
I did over react, but please understand, I have had alot of people attack what Elfman does, and therefore what I do, and it really makes me mad. Maybe you where not saying EXACTLY what I thought you where, and if I mistook some things than I am sorry. The reason why I replied to the age thing is because it just sounded like you where flaunting, and for me (a composer who was not able to go to college because I couldn’t afford it), I really frown on that kind of thing (flaunting). Even if you where 50 I probably would have replied the same. But I do wish you the best, and you are going into a very difficult field, so I really respect that. It just didn’t sound like you respected Elfman’s process.
Knight (You should hear me yell at people who bag on using multi-samplers lol)
Knight, apology greatfully accepted.
I really didn’t mean to flaunt anything and-or appear as if I were attacking what you or any other film composer does. I also wish you the best and hope to see continued posts from you on the board.
wishing you the best of luck- DmW
Elfman not a genius of Mozartian proportions?
Anyone who claims that Mozart was a genius is seriously misled. Although I suppose it would be difficult to write nursery rhyme tunes for thirty years and not go insane. Oh that’s right, he was a paranoid schizophrenic.
Sorry for the bandwagoning, but argh! Mozart was a hack. Perhaps if he’d lived longer that 30 years he would have developed into a passable composer. But as he stands he is just another historical note that backwards-thinking conservatives have turned into an idol.
We criticize punk bands for their “lack of imagination” when they write a whole piece using I-IV-V-I. How about a whole oeuvre (maybe throwing in the occasion minor vi or ii)? Well, they must be GENII! Incredible.
What about the real genii of music? Schoenberg for example, who completely radicalized the whole way of thinking about music? Ravel & Debussy who stopped the sturm und drang of romantic orchestrators and introduced levity and … well… interest into modern orchestras. John Cage and his aleatoric music? The humor of Prokofiev, the intense but dignified seriousness or the playful humour of Samuel Barber? The prince of polytonality, Charles Ives?
One shouldn’t assume that because one can write a tune at five that one is a genius. I could read novels at 3 and a half, and that doesn’t make me a genius.
Sorry for the rant again. Let’s pretend it didn’t happen.
James (classically trained Singer/Pianist/Cellist/Composer)You, Mr. classically trained Singer, Pianist and Cellist are an idiot. Just like Evan Evans who once said: “If Mozart was such a genius, why couldn’t he compose like Stravinsky?”
1) You keep forgetting that Mozart was the first musical freelance, composing whatever the market wanted.
2) Mozart (& Haydn) did write lots of fantastic (and quite radical and groundbreaking) string quartets.
3) Late Mozart pieces (esp. piano and string quartet) are at the edge of atonality and ahead of their times.
4) And how a supposed composer can know of his Symphony No. 25 In G Minor, The Magic Flute, Clarinet Concerto in A Major, Jupiter Symphony, Marriage of Figaro (Mozart’s most radical opera) etc. and say “Mozart was a hack” is beyond me. You obviously can’t recognize how boldly composed some of his music was.Sorry for that response again. Let’s pretend it didn’t happen.
That is what you get from schooling, the stupid idea that music is science. IT’S NOT, it’s friggan art people. Mozart’s music touched alot of people, and had a very strong impact, so he was a great composer. I am sick and tired of people saying that this person or that person sucked because they don’t like that person’s music. That is your damn opinion, and keep it to yourself because not everyone will agree with you, and J.R., I sure as hell don’t. No, I am not into Mozart’s music, it just don’t have that much impact for me, but I would NEVER say he was a hack because of that. Seriously, can you tell me that your music has impacted more people than Mozart’s? No? That is what I thought.
Knight (Who is listening to Sir Mixalot right now lol)
Hmm, I am performing in the Magic Flute at the moment… I have performed in Marriage of Figaro, I have played all his string divertimenti, I have played the double piano concerto, I have sung in four Haydn masses and his Creation (Haydn was a far superior composer to Mozart). I am familiar with his work, so don’t assume I’m just an uneducated malcontent.
Nothing Mozart did was groundbreaking or “boldly composed” — it was all precedented by other classical composers. As for being close to atonality, do your research Miss Nin Cherry, and look up a definition of atonality. You’ll find that it simply means “a lack of tonal centre” which is something that Mozart and ALL classical composers could not even comprehend. They wrote DIATONICALLY — that is the staple of Classical era composers. Atonality did not even begin to form until around the time of Wagner, halfway through the nineteenth century.
Listen to The Magic Flute — if you can claim that is atonality, then you are either deluded or listening to a very bad opera company.
As for being a freelance, that is blatantly incorrect. He was in the pay of German nobles for all his life. He just kept offending them because he had no idea how to deal with other people. Again, do your research before you make sweeping claims.
“let’s forget this response ever happened” – well done, you have mastered the art of sarcasm. The lowest form of wit.
As for you, Knight, I never claimed that my music has touched anyone, let alone as many as Mozart. I acknowledge that people like him. I don’t. End of story. However, it does bother me that he is so often referred to as a genius when other, better, composers are totally ignored. And, last time I checked, expressing opinions was what internet message boards were for. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. Please show me the same respect. Try to censor the real offensive ones such as Nin Cherry who claims I am an idiot for having an opinion that is not her own.
*sighs*
>buth argh! Mozart was a hack.
You call that “respectfully expressing your opinion”? You call that not being offensive? When calling Mozart a hack when he’s actually a good composer (I didn’t say the greatest of all time, neither did I say that he was a “genius”), you obviously didn’t want to “express your opinion”, you wanted to provoke.
The response you got was the response you were practically begging for. If you deny that, you’re just a hypocrite.>Hmm, I am performing in the Magic Flute at the moment… I have performed in Marriage of Figaro, I have played all his string divertimenti, I have played the double piano concerto, I have sung in four Haydn masses and his Creation.
How good for you. Besides that, you are a classically trained Singer/Pianist/Cellist/Composer. Maybe you’re really good at playing tennis and a fantastic cook too? Just go ahead and let us know if it makes you feel better.
>I am familiar with his work, so don’t assume I’m just an uneducated malcontent.
Where did I assume that? What I was saying (you might like to read it again) was:
“And how a supposed composer can know of his Symphony No. 25 In G Minor, The Magic Flute, Clarinet Concerto in A Major, Jupiter Symphony, Marriage of Figaro (Mozart’s most radical opera) etc. and say “Mozart was a hack” is beyond me.”
In fact, I was assuming you *know* his music. Which makes it all the worse.(As for your comment that Haydn was a far superior composer than Mozart, I can second that. Haydn would constantly break the rules, make new ones – and break them again. I’d never call Mozart a better (or more radical) composer than Jospeh Haydn.)
> Listen to The Magic Flute — if you can claim that is atonality, then you are either deluded or listening to a very bad opera company.
Where did I say “The Magic Flute” was atonal?
>As for being a freelance, that is blatantly incorrect.
No, it’s not. In 1779, Mozart returned to Salzburg where he became court organist to the Archbishop Hieronymus von Colloredo. 2 years later, Mozart broke free of Salzburg and became a freelance musician in Vienna, without benefit of church, court or a rich patron. He wrote “The abdication from the Seraglio” during that time. In fact, he was the first of the freelance composers, gathering commissions on his own to write operas, concertos and other works.
I have no idea what makes you believe that he was “in the pay of German nobles for all his life”. Besides, Hieronymus von Colloredo wasn’t even German, he was Austrian. Maybe it’s you who should check his facts before making sweeping claims.>Nothing Mozart did was groundbreaking or “boldly composed” — it was all precedented by other classical composers.
Listen to Mozart’s string quartet KV 465 (it’s part of that “Six quartets dedicated to Jospeh Haydn” from 1785). It was definitely ahead of it’s time and not at all precedented by others – if you can’t see that, you need help. I don’t deny the fact that Mozart was highly impressed and inspired by Haydn’s work, but he did never copy him.
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