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Bleeeeeech….
I think Burton has lost his edge since becoming involved with Helena Bonham-Carter. Seriously. I detect a serious shift in his creative work post-PLANET OF THE APES. Oh Tim, how I used to love your films…
That’s funny, because all his movies, post-Apes, have done well in the box office and been well received critically. I’m not sure (specifically) what you want from the poor man. Maybe Frankenweenie will tap your nostalgic needs.
I could care less about the Pirates movies (I didn’t even see the second and third). But does that mean I’ll see the fourth for an Elfman swashbuckling score? — Hell yeah! Burton should make it like Cabin Boy.
Tim Burton’s among my favorite directors, and while I’d love to see what he would do with a “Pirates” film, I really do hope that Gore Verbinski returns for the fourth one. He did such a great job of immersing the audience into the world he created, and everything was shot with perfect style and great beauty. Burton did however work with the films’ DP Dariusz Wolski on “Sweeney Todd,” so hopefully the look would be maintained. Plus Burton has proved that he’s pretty darn good at shooting action sequences. “Alice in Wonderland” will prove to me whether his handling of VFX has improved since “Charlie,” in which they were a bit dodgy.
But regarding Elfman, could he possibly be hired by Disney to score the film? Hans Zimmer and his crew created such a distinct sound for these films that goes into territory in which Elfman doesn’t really belong. Not to mention that Zimmer’s handling of the music improved as the films went on, with the score for “At World’s End” being really quite impressive. But as with Burton, it would certainly be very interesting to hear what someone new, especially Elfman, could contribute to the series.
I really doubt Tim will do it. I’d take it with a bag of salt and 3 jars of pepper. If he does do it, it’s messed up. And if Russell Brand stars in a Tim Burton film the world will end. He’s a moron
This would be bad. It’s the kind of movie where the director doesn’t have much creative freedom in the first place, unless the producers let him have a completely different take on the series. But the first three were so popular, that wouldn’t happen in a billion years.
Doing well at the box office and critically well-received means nothing. Critics have lightened up on him and he has distilled his edge. I wonder if part of it was becoming a father too. Remember when his movies upset people? Parents hated NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS, McDonalds was stuck with a massive marketing campaign to tie into BATMAN RETURNS after it was criticized for it’s violence (Penguin chomping off a guys nose anyone?) and making an R-rated black and white comedy about a transvestite b-movie maker was a devious gamble; resulting in his finest movie – EVER.
Now it’s all safe bets: remakes and Oscar bait. With the latter belching back in his face. People often seem to get excited at first glance when they see his movies, only to stop and re-think it. I too was such a person. BIG FISH, CHARLIE, SWEENEY – all glitter on the outer shell, but hollow inside. My tastes may have changed, but I can detect when an artist is sticking with the middle-ground.
…McDonalds was stuck with a massive marketing campaign to tie into BATMAN RETURNS after it was criticized for it’s violence…
Burton certainly didn’t pull back the violence in Sweeney Todd.
BIG FISH, CHARLIE, SWEENEY – all glitter on the outer shell, but hollow inside.
Hmm, I would argue that Big Fish and Charlie are more substantive and have more subtext than, say, Beetlejuice.
My tastes may have changed, but I can detect when an artist is sticking with the middle-ground.
Well, doing a stop motion, feature length version of Frankenweenie is pretty radical, considering that the first version wasn’t popular in the first place.
Hmmm…sounds like some wishful fanboy thinking to me (based on the fact that Depp plays Jack Sparrow). I believe it when I see it. Not that I wouldn’t find it interesting. It’s just not very likely.
Burton may not have pulled back from the violence, but it was made and marketed with the intent of being a major Oscar contender. It was a gamble in content only. Would that film exist with Depp prior to PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN? Exactly… And remember the marketing campaign? Barely hinted at it’s musical roots.
What subtext in BIG FISH and CHARLIE? Men coming to terms with their fathers? Watch that scene where Billy Crudup confronts Helena Bonham Carter about having an affair with his dad. Major fumble. He can’t handle realistic drama. Willy Wonka coming to terms with his father at the end of CHARLIE? It was a sloppy conclusion to a half baked idea. No emotional ending at all. If they wanted to add such a subplot, why not make it between Charlie’s father and grandfather. They were far more likable and had more screen time.
Subtext in SWEENY? Not really. It’s a pretty cut and dry (sorry for the pun) revenge melodrama.Stop motion version of FRANKENWEENIE is not radical. Burton + remake + Disney + Stop motion = safe idea.
Disney would love to rekindle the marketing cash cow that was NIGHTMARE I’m sure.Would that film exist with Depp prior to PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN?
Maybe? Wasn’t the movie green lit before Depp was cast?
And remember the marketing campaign? Barely hinted at it’s musical roots.
Aside from the material with Depp singing?
What subtext in BIG FISH and CHARLIE? Men coming to terms with their fathers?
No, sir. When I say subtext, I’m talking about underlying themes, or more specifically, things that are metaphorical. For example, in Big Fish, when Albert Finney’s wife is in the lake at the end of the movie, that would signify that she is his “great catch,” so to speak. You can find lots of this kind of stuff when you contrast his tall tales with the actual occurrences.
Subtext in SWEENY? Not really.
I never said that there was subtext in Sweeny.
Stop motion version of FRANKENWEENIE is not radical. Burton + remake + Disney + Stop motion = safe idea.
Stop motion is a niche market. Nightmare and Corpse Bride were modest successes, whereas, a safe idea, like Pixar’s Finding Nemo, makes 40 bajillion worldwide.
Disney would love to rekindle the marketing cash cow that was NIGHTMARE I’m sure.
Nightmare isn’t Frankenweenie. If it was, Corpse Bride would have shared similar success, in terms of merchandise. Then again, Nightmare is more popular now than it ever was. So maybe Corpse Bride will get a second coming.
Depp singing. Sure. I’ll give you that one. But this hardly screams “musical” to me:
And no mention of Sondheim? Just who was the film being marketed towards? PIRATES fans or Sondheim lovers? Of course they would know when they hear the song. But no “based on the most successful broadway musical in history”, or something like that. Nope. Just Depp. Horror. Gothic. Tim Burton. Blood. Like I said, it barely hints at the fact it’s based on a musical.
The subtext is inconsistent from BIG FISH to CHARLIE. There’ subtext in any film or screenplay. That’s a limp argument. No common theme from film to film that might draw an artist to making a statement? Something that compels one to tell a certain kind of story? I don’t see him exploring any ideas from film to film they way he used to. I guess they’re all still “outsiders”, but he’s in serious need of growing up. He’s perpetually spinning his wheels. There no sign of discovering new ideas or themes. Look at Terry Gilliam over the past 5 years. Far more satisfying output than Burton. Less commercially successful, but hey, Burton’s got two new mouths to feed…so again with my theory that he’s just choosing a safe middle ground for the best interest in his career.
Stop motion may be a niche market, but Burton isn’t. COPRSE BRIDE may not have lit the box office on fire, but it was pushed heavily as a (guess what?) Oscar contender for Animated Feature! Burton was campaigning for that movie all over LA when the DVD came out – autograph signings at Best Buy; screenings and Q&A at the DGA, etc. He was even at The Oscars; something he has consistently avoided over the years.
SWEENY may have been edgier without the lineage of past Oscar baited musicals that proceeded it, but otherwise, Burton has by and large set up camp in Dullsville.
There no sign of discovering new ideas or themes.
Here’s a great quote from Film score monthly:
“Burton’s Willy Wonka is a social outcast, but Burton doesn’t encourage us to sympathize with him they way we sympathized with Edward or Pee-Wee. Wonka’s attempt to isolate himself from society and fill his factory with whimsical diversions only leaves him empty and miserable – he’s ultimately only saved by entering back into the family unit and community. This is hardly a theme that we saw in Burton’s previous work. And in Corpse Bride, the heroine is not an outcast at all, but part of a loving and loyal community. The entire film is about interpersonal relationships, people reaching outward, not inward – again, not themes that earlier Burton would have especially valued.”
“Wonka’s attempt to isolate himself from society and fill his factory with whimsical diversions only leaves him empty and miserable – he’s ultimately only saved by entering back into the family unit and community.”
“And in Corpse Bride, the heroine is not an outcast at all, but part of a loving and loyal community. The entire film is about interpersonal relationships, people reaching outward, not inward.”
That’s a good idea, but it’s nothing new. It fits with Burton’s characters looking for family or dealing with a father am is something that can also be said with BIG FISH. But he fumbles this idea BIG TIME.
The idea of reaching outward has always been there. His “outcast” characters always reached out for help. Pee Wee relied on people to help him find his bike, Lydia in Beetlejuice reached out to the ghosts of the previous homeowners, Edward literally reaches out to Peg when they meet in the attic…
Burton seems to be struggling with real family. He’s always dealt better with surrogate ones (Ed Wood and Bela Lugosi is such a wonderful father/son relationship.) I think he’s still searching for something, but it’s been a long while. Maybe I’ll change my tune, but he’s becoming dangerously predictable.
I have to agree that he has traversed into safe territory after his best works Nightmare and Ed Wood. With the exception of Apes, I don’t think he’s made a BAD movie, though. He probably delegates more work to other people now that he can. Through that process, an artist’s vision can get kind of clouded. He should do an independent movie.
Exactly. Remember how great his opening credits used to be? Beginning with APES, the tone setting style of a Burton opening credit sequence has fizzled…
I still love Burton’s opening sequences, despite what everyone says. A lot of it is probably due to the stellar music, though.
Burton’s Willy Wonka is a social outcast, but Burton doesn’t encourage us to sympathize with him they way we sympathized with Edward or Pee-Wee.
This is an example of Burton’s growth. You’re not sympathizing with Wonka, who doesn’t have a family, you’re sympathizing Charlie, who does. The same can be said with Sweeney. You sympathize with the two kids, and not Sweeney and the Helena Bonham Carter character — who are the social outcasts.
Okay. So perhaps more than before, Burton is shifting his feelings to children? But why then add a subplot involving Willy Wonka and his estranged father? To show that Burton is learning something from his own children? God dammit you’re debunking my theories!!!
Well just to put an end to all this Burton bashing (or not) the rumor is he’s NOT doing Pirates 4. Terry Rossio (co-screenwriter) debunks all the rumors. (Russell Brand included…thank GOD) I can’t say I’m surprised since the source looked like it was written but a 12 year old via text message. Probably the same guy/gal that said Cher was gonna play the Catwoman in Dark Knight 3! CHER?! Now let’s stop all this fightin’ and a feudin’ and get on to some LOVIN’!
Lucius
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