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So while I don’t want to try to nail Elfman for unoriginality, I have noticed some definite influences/similarities between his music and that of others. Has anyone else?
One that I have noticed is how the “B” section of the main titles for BLACK BEAUTY (the part heard at the start of the End Credits) bears a striking similarity to the “Romance” movement of Sergei Prokofiev’s “Lieutenant Kijé, Suite.”
I know of some others, but can’t think of them at the moment.
Can anyone think of any others?
While we’re on the subject of Prokofiev, there’s that ominous A-B-Bflat motif from Alexander Nevsky that Elfman uses as part of the main theme in Darkman.
There’s also a very obvious use of Holst’s “Mars” in “The Return” track from ‘Planet of the Apes’ about 4-1/2 minutes in.
I haven’t noticed many similarities myself, but Elfman has gone on record many times to state his admiration for the Russian composers, especially Prokofiev.
A lot of “stealing” is most likely unconscious. If you hear something enough, it’ll creep into your own compositions in one way or another, without you even knowing about it.
one time i was listening to a Radiohead song, and for a second i forgot i was listening to Radiohead and thought somehow i had put in something that i had recorded, as it sounded identical. at first i felt crappy, but then i realized i wrote my song before i had heard the Radiohead song, which means either:
1. I’m just as awesome as Radiohead.
2. I listen to so much Radiohead that I can channel how they write their songs.
3. Radiohead stole my song.I know what you mean. I heard Giacchino’s “ROAR! Overture” from Cloverfield just once a while ago. After listening to it again recently, I discovered I used one of the same primary motifs from that in one of my own scores, completely by accident. Go figure.
I wasn’t trying to imply that Elfman was stealing, Mr. Dantz. I was just curious if anyone noticed any other similarities among other pieces because I personally find them fascinating.
It lends an idea as to what might have inspired the composer, or what styles they identify with.
The most OBVIOUS influence on Elfman is NOT a classical composer but a fellow SCORE COMPOSER. That person is Bernard Herrmann. Has anyone heard Herrmann’s score for Fahrenheit 451? That score has Elfman written all over it.
Quite true, as Elfman himself has mentioned many times. But I think that was the point of the topic to discuss his classical influences and not so much the film music ones.
EDIT: I really should correct myself, though. Herrmann was a concert composer, as well. Of course, he’s not terribly well known for it, and I’m sure he resents that in his grave.
Descent Into Mystery Wrote:
> The most OBVIOUS influence on Elfman is NOT a
> classical composer but a fellow SCORE COMPOSER.
> That person is Bernard Herrmann. Has anyone heard
> Herrmann’s score for Fahrenheit 451? That score
> has Elfman written all over it.You don’t say?!?!? 😮
This guy can cut and paste better that Microsoft Word! I really dig Elfman, but he has stolen more themes that I can keep up with. Listen to Stravinsky, Kurt Weill, Sir Malcolm Arnold, and Prokofiev. Now there is ‘influence’ and ‘ripping.’ You decide which is Elfman’s favorite method. Bartek also has similar ‘methods’ with his orchestrations for Elfman’s sketches.
What else would you expect with ‘minimal’ classical composition training (Elfman) and some formal education in orchestration (Bartek)? Yeah they were both in Oingo Boingo, but “Weird Science” is pretty damn far from the conservatory training of Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Weill, Arnold, Brahms, Beethoven, Webern, Berg, Rach, Liszt- (need I go on)?
So I would be surprised if anyone was naive enough to believe that Elfman, Bartek, and the other 20 people it takes to complete a single ‘Elfman’ score doesn’t use material from another composer who has completed the work by him or herself. It’s the way of the Hollywood score composer, n’est-ce pas?
just imagine Prokofiev handing a sketch over and asking another friend to orchestrate it for him!!!!! LOL!!
This will start a very long, very passionate and very pointless debate. I’m not thanking you for that elfan.
Thanking me for what- the elephant in the room or creating discussion on a discussion board?
Here is something that is from Elfman himself:
“Complete Guide to Film Scoring”
ISBN: 0-634-00636-3
Berklee Press
Richard DavisPage 284:
Q: “What advice do you have for young composers?”
A: Danny Elfman: “If you want to be successful learn to imitate. I think the entire industry right now revolves around plagiarism and imitation, and unless you’re willing to plagiarize you may find it difficult to proceed. On the other hand, if you want to be a good composer, or a real composer, learn to resist that tendency. That can be hard and it can also mean you may not get certain kind of jobs you want… I think imitation is the easy way out…’
The last time I checked, Elfman was pretty dang successful in his field:)
Also- here is a partial list of specific scores that I found that Elfman *cough* “borrowed” *cough* themes and snips from from:
“The Hulk”- Debussy’s “Book of Preludes Vol. 1” and Philip Glass’ “Dance Suites”
“Spiderman”- Philip Glass’ “Dance Suites”
“Beetle Juice”- Stravinsky’s “Histoire du soldat”
“TNBC”- One of Kurt Weill’s voice and piano pieces (theme used in the EXACT same key & rhythm!!!!)
The Simpsons- Sir Malcolm Arnold’s “Overture”I have many more if anyone wants to know about these “coincidences.” I also have specific bar numbers, movements, etc.
“Elfan,” Elfman is no special case. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a composer, for film or not, who has not borrowed from other composers. Just as a suggestion, if you’re looking for someone to pick on, John WIlliams would probably be more enjoyable for you to destroy.
Agreed D-Bo. Composers have influences and sometimes actually steal (consciously or not) several bars from their predecessors and/or masters, that’s nothing new. Earlier I was listening to M. Williams’ wonderful score for SW Ep III and heard Bela Bartok wandering around for several seconds.
I don’t see how referencing all of them with the goal of pointing a lack of originality would be an interesting work . When I read (hear) that kind of comment, I just push the volume of my cd player up…I’m not an expert on classical music or anything but I’m sure Elfman hasn’t stolen anything. He may have been a little TOO influenced a few times but I doubt he has completely stolen someone’s work. If he had people would have noticed and he would be considered a stealer. If Elfan is correct then perhaps Elfman is the Tarantino of the music world. When you watch a Tarantino movie you KNOW where everything is coming from but you’d never call him a stealer. He’s not actually stealing anything. He just been a little too influenced.
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