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Well, if it’s the repetitive aspect you don’t like, what about the minimalist music by Glass, Nyman et.al.?
Well, Glass’ material is so much more comprehensive, offering variety.
Well, I’m more interested in looking at a debate where people dump on the movie that they haven’t even seen yet.
Film music that is more sound design, for example, is no less music than other expressions.
It’s that kind of attitude that has allowed film composition to deteriorate in some chases.
A score just serving a film, without any variety or variance, should not be enough to win an academy award. That isn’t the criteria for any other aspect of filmmaking — to just solely be effective and that’s it.
That theme playing over-and-over again, for me, is just tiring. (Simplicity is perfectly fine, but in moderation).
I mean, Taking Woodstock is a low-key, acoustic-based score, but just listen to all the variety.
I’m just saying that Elfman is no saint. And neither is John Williams, the God of American film music. So, no reason to badmouth John Ottman for doing the same.
Then why do the same with Elfman and Williams? And honestly, do you really believe Elfman and Williams are plagiarists? I mean… really?
My beef with Ottman is that instead of attempting to do something creative with all that great material he had on Superman, he just scored a temp track (no, not literally). Again, look at Mission Impossible. Elfman did such elegant variations of the old themes while interweaving them with his own. And panting Elfman as a guy who would knowingly rip someone off to save time is absurd. The fact that Elfman wouldn’t rip Christopher Young off during the Spider-Man 2 debacle just proves my point.
And I got into this argument without going into full attack against Elfman. I chose the smallest example.
And look how well that went, right?
I could have easily used the two Pee-Wee scores which are essentially Nino Rota music.
Ha, ha. Wow. How hyperbolic.
What Rota scores does Elfman pay homage too? Have you heard them? I have. The tone of the Pee-wee scores is very much Rota, however the writing itself is all Elfman, with all the integrity intact.
Firstly, the main theme is this:
http://buysound.solo.net/Fahrenheit_451/prelude.mp3
Secondly, both composers use five notes and go on to finish their phrases with something else. I don’t see how you’re so hung up on this.
Common? I only hear it with Elfman. Wanna point out some examples?
Here’s an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eIwfym0TbY
Listen at 8:57,
Led Zeppelin ripped off Bernard Herrmann!
What Benny and Danny are doing there is basic musical grammar — brass quintuplets, I believe the technique is called. And even if that wasn’t the case, yes, both of those music statements start off the same, but then the composers both do something completely different with it.
A score shouldn’t solely be effective. The music should also be good.
Well, then you haven’t seen much TV
I’ll take that as a compliment.
Do you really think that the music parodies are really a compliment to the music itself, or a comedic way to invoke the movie Brokeback Mountain?
It was exactly the simplicity AND repetitive nature that made it so good.
It’s like the old argument, isn’t it? “When a soundtrack is used in a good movie, all traditional film score negatives become positives!”
Not really. It popped up (and still do) in parodies, tributes, satires…
You might be right, but personally, I have never heard that music parodied anywhere. However, on Mad TV, I’ve heard Elfman’s music parodied with “Gay Hulk,” funny enough.
It’s just a basic rhythmic that can be found in many film scores or 20th century pieces for orchestra.
I think that’s what he’s referring to. And like you said, it’s a basic rhythmic building block that could be used by anyone. Why Descent Into Mystery can’t post the video’s time codes where the music is the same is beyond me.
So, at what time on the Flash video does Elfman lift music from “Farenheit?” When you hear something played side by side, it should be fairly obvious when something is a rip-off. I hesitate to ask where the “Farenheit” quotations are in Batman and Dick Tracy, only because the examples you’d come up with might also be incredibly unsatisfying!
I think whenever Elfman is over-booked he tends to…not try as hard. Take 1990, for example. “Nightbreed,” “Dick Tracy,” “Darkman,” and the TV theme for “The Flash” have too much in common.
Do you think his scores in ‘96 have too much in common? He did like 6 that year, and all those scores were pretty diverse. (I’m counting Men in Black because he began the writing process at the end of that year.)
One of the most deserving Oscars in recent years.
Hey! I can strum 2 bars of music on an acoustic guitar… give me an Oscar!
The score is 13 minutes long and the theme is still repetitive.…and that become such a phenomenon in pop culture afterwards.
Quite a short-lived phenomenon, I would say.
…
Oops! Brokeback Mountain came out in ’05. I was confusing “Mountain” with Babel.
He, he. It’s the like Roy Rogers Old West with electricity and cars. Or the Wolfgang Petersen Ancient Greece with catapults.
…as for the best… who knows.
Well, the best scores are determined by the Academy, and they gave the Oscar to Brokeback Mountain, which, obviously, is the best score of that year.
I really love Deep Sea 3D, X-Men 3, Soul of the Ultimate Nation, and The Good German.
Herrmann’s “Farenheit 451” score is one Elfman loves to quote.
Where? I love that score.
I find that Beetlejuice has the most Herrmann references. “Beetle-Snake” has a little of “Talos / The Boat / The Wreck” from Jason and the Argonauts. There’s another “Jason” reference in Beetlejuice, but it escapes me.
I think they change from each reprise. But they are hard to understand. I imagine the lyrics will be on the liner notes.
If Elfman quotes something, no matter how small, I don’t believe he’s consciously doing it. I mean, he was asked to rip-off Christopher Young and he wouldn’t do it. It’s obvious that Elfman tries to distance himself from quoting other composers, especially ones who are alive.
That Williams-Korngold comparison, for me, is rather weak. Yes, Williams takes the first two notes from the theme, but then, does something completely different with it. Hardly a rip-off. The references in Superman Returns are all over the place; it’s a complete “Frankenstein” score; it’s like you’re listening to the temp track. Again, it amazes me that Ottman doesn’t do anything interesting with the Williams theme. I’ve been whistling different variations of the Superman theme for years, and I’m not even a film composer. A skilled composer should be able to do that. Conversely, Elfman did a great job doing variations of The Plot theme in Mission Impossible.
The theme has definitely grown on me from those previews. And I totally wasn’t expecting a theme with lyrics! I
Indeed. In fact, it’s the first theme in a long time (from any movie) that’s been stuck in my head after just one listen. That rarely happens.
“Superman Returns” was the best score of 2006. And X2 was one of the best in 2003.
It’s funny, because Hulk came out in ’03 and the Hulk main theme is in Superman Returns (for that matter, as was music from Legends of the Fall and Witches of Eastwick). I find it amazing that Ottman had the Williams Superman theme at his disposable, and he didn’t do anything with it. Oddly enough, Williams did more interesting variations of his theme in that crime montage in the original movie than Ottman did in his entire score.
I think the reason Elfman is even doing Green Hornet is because of Michel Gondry. I imagine he is on Elfman’s “directors I want to work with” list. Who knows about Martin Campbell? Maybe if there was some sort of fun musical hook in Green Lantern that would attract Elfman. If I ruled Hollywood, I’d give the job to David Arnold. He has done some romantic theme writing when he’s allowed to. Maybe that kind of stuff would lend itself to characters flying around, like in the Rocketeer or The Blue Max.
And don’t forget that Captain America might be a possibility for Danny. And in that case, doing a militaristic, patriotic, throwback score, in the vain of Battle of Neretva or The Naked and the Dead, might peak Danny’s interest.
Blame John Ottman. He was supposed to be his successor, but has been slacking off for the past 3 years.
Yeah, Ottman’s Superman score was sort of stuck in temp track purgatory. And his X-men score didn’t really leave an impression on me, either. However, John Powell’s X-men score was great. I say give him more superhero scoring duties.
